Alissa Rumsey [00:00:08]:
This work is so much bigger than just food. When you learn to trust yourself around food, that trust bleeds into all other aspects of your life.

Leah Kern [00:00:08]:
Welcome to shoulders down, a podcast for truth seekers who want to heal their relationships with food and body. I'm your host, Leah Kern, And I'm an anti diet dietitian, certified intuitive eating counselor, and fellow truth seeker with personal experience navigating disordered eating. In this podcast, you'll learn to harness your body's innate wisdom to govern not just how you eat, but also how you live. It's my mission to help you heal your relationship with food and body so you can live your most aligned and fulfilling life. Welcome, and I'm so glad that you're here. Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Shoulders Down. Today, we have a fellow anti diet dietitian on the podcast, Alisa Rumsey. We had such a wonderful conversation, Touching on a lot of pieces that we haven't yet covered on shoulders down.So we talk about divesting from beauty ideals, the intersections of Intuitive eating and anti diet work with social justice work, antiracism work, divesting from the patriarchy, All these deeper pieces that you start to uncover as you peel back the layers within the anti diet and intuitive eating frameworks. So I'm so excited for you to hear this conversation with Alyssa. She's someone who I've been kind of connected To her work for years now, I think she's one of the earlier intuitive eating providers who I went to for Kern of this content even as I was in my own training to become a dietitian. So it was very special to get to speak with her and have her on the podcast today. I am going to introduce Alissa, and then we will dive right into today's episode. Alissa Rumsey is a registered dietitian, nutrition therapist, certified intuitive eating counselor, and the author of Unapologetic Eating, Make Peace With Food and Transform Your Life. She provides group programs, counseling, and trainings individuals, health care professionals, and organizations to help increase access to respectful, non stigmatizing care and support people in breaking free both individually and collectively from body based oppression in order to build a world where everybody is able to live their most unapologetic liberated life. Her expertise has been featured in hundreds of media outlets, and she speaks regularly at events, online trainings, and conferences around the country.

Leah Kern [00:02:28]:
She calls New York City home and spends her free time exploring the city's food scene and searching for patches of green space to sunbathe in. Welcome to the podcast, Alissa. I'm so excited to chat today.

Alissa Rumsey [00:02:39]:
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

Leah Kern [00:02:41]:
So I just said to you before we hit record, I have been following your work for a while. I don't know exactly how long, but I feel like you are one of the early intuitive eating accounts that I encountered on social media. So I have like bits and pieces from your story from that way and also reading your book, but I'm excited to really get to hear from you Your story today, that's like a piece that I really value. So I'd love to just start by hearing you kind of walk us through Your food and body story as much as you're comfortable getting into.

Alissa Rumsey [00:03:12]:
So up until puberty, it wasn't something I ever Thought about, and I say that as someone with a lot of body privilege, a lot of thin privilege. It wasn't something I thought about because I didn't need to and I didn't have people making comments or caregivers or parents making comments about my body size. So I really didn't think about it. I played a lot of sports and just kind of ate whatever. And then I went through puberty and sort of, like, early to mid high school, Put on what I now know is very normal and needed a necessary weight, but did the sort of Typical or normal kind of panic about that, about my body changing. I think back now and I don't think diet culture quote unquote was Super apparent to me at the time, but my mom had been going to Weight Watchers and so I asked him, like, oh, can I go? And so I started that, was kind of my first foray into Dieting and into thinking about food in a very different way. And then sort of In over the next couple of years, I started going to a gym and working out, and there's a trainer there who's very into nutrition. And I also was taking a biology class and was very fascinated about digestion and the science behind that.

Alissa Rumsey [00:04:26]:
So It kind of all came together with me dieting and continuing to restrict my food intake and, like, counting points and calories and things like that. And then I learned that there was this profession called dietitian and decided to go to college for that. I was also still like very into sports and fitness and was planning to go into the sports nutrition field. I wanted to work with Professional athletes was my original thought. And so in college, I majored in nutrition and in exercise science. I worked at the gym, I was definitely over exercising. I I didn't think that at the time, but I look back Kern, and I was like, oh, wow. Like, I was sick at one point freshman year of college for, like, 5 months Because my body was just under so much stress, I was under fueling, over exercising, not getting enough sleep.

Alissa Rumsey [00:05:17]:
So, yeah, throughout college, I Continued to what I'd say now was definitely a disordered relationship with food. Like, thought about it a lot, Wasn't necessarily doing official diets anymore, but just was, like, thinking about it a lot. And then I moved to New York City After I graduated from college and I took a job at a large medical center hospital here in New York City, and Honestly, I think that's something both the move to New York, I didn't know anybody when I moved here, so I became friends with my colleagues at the hospital. Yeah. It was really interesting because I I now know that disordered eating and eating disorders are very common in our profession, But I happen to have a group of coworkers where everyone had a pretty good relationship to food. And then we were in New York, and we were in our twenties, and I was getting really into Food and, you know, the restaurant scene and coming from a very tiny town, there was like just so much new. So sort of like naturally over time, I began to heal my relationship to food, and I didn't know that's what was happening. I think too, I was living with roommates.

Alissa Rumsey [00:06:20]:
One of my roommates, her boyfriend, he'd lived farther away so he would just come on the weekends. And he knew that we loved, like, candy and chocolate and ice cream, and so he would like Every time he came, he'd, like, bring all this stuff. And at first, I was, like, kind of panicked of like, no, no, no, I can't keep this in the house. And I distinctly remember This 1 weekday, like, I got home from work and I was, like, trying to figure out what to make for dinner, and I opened the freezer. And I was like, oh my gosh. This pint of ice cream has been here for, like, almost a week and I totally forgot about it. And that was kind of this, like, first sort of moment of like, wait a second. You know, it's been here.

Alissa Rumsey [00:06:58]:
I've been eating it a lot lately, but now I've totally forgotten about it. Yeah. So I think it just kind of like Naturally over time happened, I began to have a more balanced and healthy relationship to food in my body kind of as I went through my twenties. And then I discovered intuitive eating as a dietitian. I was like, oh, wait. This is what I'm doing, but I didn't realize that that's what it was.

Leah Kern [00:07:20]:
Your story is so unique in that way. I feel like most people I've spoken to from the podcast and just in life, it's like they learn about this thing intuitive eating, then they intentionally implement it. And it sounds like for you, it kind of happened in reverse of, like, intuitive eating gave you the language to describe what you were doing, but you didn't even realize that's what you were doing.

Alissa Rumsey [00:07:38]:
Yeah. And again, I think because I live in a naturally straight sized body, and even when I weighed more, I was still straight sized. And And so I think, you know, I wasn't like, all my body image stuff was internal. I wasn't getting any external comments or My doctor telling me I had to lose weight or, like, anything like that, so it was very internal. So I think in that way, it made it quote unquote easier. I mean, it was still Probably over a decade plus that this really happened. But, yeah, it was I think too, I started getting more into like Yoga and meditation in my twenties a little bit. And so again, this like mind body connection and just starting to be more connected to my body.

Alissa Rumsey [00:08:18]:
And I distinctly also remember The first time I realized that my appetite fluctuated over the course of a month in relation to my cycle, and I was like, oh, this is so like, I'm just naturally hungrier 1 week and naturally less hungry another week. And I was just like, oh, this is really interesting because I had never noticed that before. So there's like little pieces like that. But, yeah, it wasn't an intentional thing.

Leah Kern [00:08:41]:
That's so cool. I never, like, realized this until you just said that, but I also worked at a hospital when I first moved to New York and became a dietitian. And, you know, the dietitian's office is, like, in the basement. Like, it's, like, next to the cafeteria and, like, the morgue. I had this moment of realizing Certain times of the month when I would go downstairs to start my day, I would be very nauseated because there'd be all these, like, carts of, like, Soiled bedding and hospital gowns and, like, garbage and stuff because it was the basement. And I was like, why is it that sometimes I can walk right by it and other times I'm like, I'm gonna puke? And then I realized that, like, how nauseous I am depends on my hormones, and I've never heard someone share something related to Hormone cycles is as a entryway into connection with body on an intuitive eating journey. It's just another interesting thing I haven't thought about.

Alissa Rumsey [00:09:30]:
Yeah. So again, I have these kind of like distinct memories around that and then discovering intuitive eating In the book Intuitive Eating, and and it was really actually a training of that Evelyn Tribblee does. I'm like, oh, I think this is like mind fleeting, which is something I was getting interested in. And I'm like, let me do this trading, and I was like, oh, no. This is totally different. And like you said, it it gave me this language to realize like, oh, okay. And also a lens through which to Think about my clients as well.

Leah Kern [00:09:59]:
In your book, you write about, like, accidentally stumbling into intuitive eating, thinking you were taking a mindful eating course. So we kind of got your personal story. How has your approach to working with clients evolved over your career as a dietitian?

Alissa Rumsey [00:10:14]:
I was trained exclusively in a weight centric lens. So, you know, looking at BMI as a marker of health and weight as a marker of health and has something to be fixed, quote, unquote. And it is funny. I do have a memory of probably, like So I moved to New York City in 0 eight. I wanna say maybe, like, 2009. I actually checked out Intuitive Eating from the New York Public Library, like, the paperback book, and I don't remember why. I don't remember, like, how it came on my radar, but I didn't have a chance to even open it before it was due back, and so I never read it. And then fast forward to I left the hospital, it was like early 2015, started my own practice.

Alissa Rumsey [00:10:55]:
I was doing a bunch of different things, so I just my private practice was pretty small, but I was, you know, working with people, like, for weight management and people who want to lose weight. But I was, like, kind of doing so through more of a mindful eating Leah and, like, tuning into body and things like that. And after my business got sort of more Stable because there was a huge learning curve with that as someone who had no business training. I was like, okay, I wanna do some trainings to improve my counseling skills, and that's when I started looking into Mind fleeting trainings. And then, yeah, I stumbled upon Evelyn's training for professionals. And it was so funny because I was like, oh, I think I like took this book out, but I never actually read it. So then, yeah, fast forward. What was that? Like, maybe 8 years later, Came full circle back around.

Alissa Rumsey [00:11:43]:
But yeah. So it was something that I literally had no idea what it was and had been a dietitian for maybe, like, 8 years at that time. And so there was kind of like 2 parts to me. One part that I was like, oh my gosh. This makes So much sense, both, like I was saying, from my own experience, but also in thinking about my clients and their experience with dieting and weight fluctuations and things like that. I was also, like, mind blown with the science side of things of, like, how have I never been taught this or, like, heard of this in so many years in the health and wellness field. Because right now, it was like 8 years working plus 4 years in college where I was, like, Working in the nutrition and fitness space that whole time too. And so it was like well over a decade, and I'm like, I've never heard any of this.

Alissa Rumsey [00:12:30]:
Like, how is that possible? And then there was a part of me that, you know, it was challenging, basically everything that I thought I knew about health and wellness and nutrition. So, you know, that was was certainly challenging. And and definitely with the overlay of being an entrepreneur and having my own business and having a bit of Financial worry of like, okay. My business is finally stable and doing well, and now I'm about to blow it all up and do something different. And it was for me one of those things that I just, like, couldn't unsee it. And it was so clear to me That this was I mean, it just made so much sense scientifically, emotionally, just everything sort of Pointed me to like, okay. Yes. This is scary.

Alissa Rumsey [00:13:20]:
Yes. This is challenging a lot of things, and I couldn't look away from it and go back to the way that I had been counseling.

Leah Kern [00:13:27]:
You cannot unsee and know the feeling of like deep resonance and alignment. They're sort of like the part of your evolution as a practitioner that is Moving from weight normative to weight inclusive. And then within the chapters where you have been operating from a Health at Every eyes, weight, inclusive intuitive eating Leah, how has your understanding and approach of intuitive eating evolved Within that chapter because I just think about, like, all of the layers of intuitive eating. Like, the longer you're in it, the more you're like, oh, like, social justice is a part of this And like divesting from the patriarchy and consumerism and capitalism. So I'm always really curious to hear people who have been kind of at it for a while, What that part of your story looks like.

Alissa Rumsey [00:14:12]:
Yeah. So for me, intuitive eating was kind of the entry point Into this world and, again, as someone with a lot of privilege, I am straight sized. I am white. I am heterosexual, cisgender, able body, etcetera, etcetera. I didn't see it because I didn't need to see it. Right? Like, that's my privilege right there. For me, it was kind of like intuitive eating, and then that led me into learning more about the Health at Every Size framework. And then from there that like, the social justice piece of it.

Alissa Rumsey [00:14:45]:
So and I remember feeling very overwhelmed As I started to kind of dip my toe in, and a good friend of mine, another clinician, was just like, 1 step at a time, because there's part of me that wanted to, like, run the other way. And she was just like just like Kern moving forward, and she was so so helpful in In that and so I did. And then, like, probably, like, a year later, going back into some of the social justice spaces, I was like, oh, okay. Like, it was was just more prepared to, like, be able to understand and take it in versus getting defensive, which was absolutely what was happening before. And yeah. It was one of those things and this was kind of like all leading up to 2020 when I think a lot of white people in the US kinda like woke up. And so, yeah, it was probably Leah 2018, 2019 that I was really starting to, like, learn from people and, like, put those pieces together of like, okay, Diet culture, like peeling back the layers, is really the patriarchy and racism and all of these different things like you were saying. And and so for me, that was really like Sabrina Strings book, Fearing the Black Body.

Alissa Rumsey [00:15:55]:
It was really pivotal in those learnings. Yeah. So that that part of it, I think it took several more years after first learning about intuitive eating, but it's, mean, it's the crux of it. I think it's it's so important. And so when you ask, like, how has my practice shifted? I think as Health care practitioners, and I think as humans living in this culture, in this society, it can be very tempting to, like, grab onto frameworks. It's like, oh, this is how I do something. Right? Because that can make us feel safe. It certainly makes me feel safe.

Alissa Rumsey [00:16:29]:
When I was going from, you know, this, like, weight normative setting to, like, something completely different. I was like, oh, intuitive eating, grasped onto it. Like, this is the thing that I can follow and that will, like, make me feel like I'm doing it right, quote, unquote. Mean, I think intuitive eating has been life changing for so many people, and there are absolutely limitations and populations and people that it may not resonate with. And so I think for me, it's about kind of like letting go of that grasp and just being more Open to, like, the uncertainty that comes with working with humans and being a human and and not trying to look for, like, the quote unquote thing, But take pieces from different philosophies and frameworks, and then, you know, when I have the client in front of me, like, meeting them where they're at there.

Leah Kern [00:17:17]:
Yeah. When we grab on to, like, another framework so so tightly, like, we risk recreating diet mindset, which is like, oh, this is the thing. And it's like, Yeah, there's so much intuitive eating is life changing. The framework has absolutely paved the way for so much of this work. And they even have been so transparent about their evolution, like with the different evolutions of the book, The beginning totally failed to recognize the like intersections of racism and White privilege and all those pieces. And we can only learn from certain people with certain lived experiences to a certain extent. You know, Evelyn and Alyssa are incredible, and they're To white woman with a lot of privilege in in straight sized bodies, and so learning from other folks with different lived experiences is just incredibly valuable.

Alissa Rumsey [00:18:00]:
Exactly. And I think the intersectionality of it is is so important, and There can be a lot of fragility. Like I said, I was getting defensive, you know, sort of when I was dipping my toe into social justice spaces. I remember getting defensive when I first heard, like, of intuitive eating, right, because I had, like, grasped onto it. And so then it was, like, bringing up this this defensiveness and this fear. And so Now, and I think I read this in the book, whenever I feel that defensiveness, I'm like, oh, wait. There's something here to pay attention to. Right? It's like alerting, like, okay, what's going on? Like, why am I feeling defensive? What's happening here? So, yeah, I think it's It's a framework, and I think it's a really beneficial framework for a lot of people.

Alissa Rumsey [00:18:46]:
And it's not like the thing. Like you said, I think it is The entry point into it, and then where do we go from here, and how can we go deeper and and continue learning?

Leah Kern [00:18:56]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So to talk a little bit more about your book, You open with this story of how you once casually posted a picture of you eating a sandwich like unposed In a bathing suit? Is that right? Or Yes. Okay. Stomach rolls out, no makeup, that kind of thing. And you kind of talk about how That photo led to the idea of unapologetic eating, which later became the title of your book. Can you share How this happened, how a photo you just like off the cuff threw on Instagram evolved into something so much bigger.

Alissa Rumsey [00:19:29]:
Yeah. So this was a photo my partner had actually taken it of me when I didn't realize he was. We were in Florida, which is where he went to college and has family, and he was like, you've never had a pub sub from Publix? I was like, I've never had pub sub. He's like, we have to get your 1st pub sub. So I'm literally, like, sitting outside. I have a bathing suit on. And it was actually him at first that he was like, do you mind if I post this photo? And I looked at him, like, Kern, go for it. And I was like, you know, I might actually post this too.

Alissa Rumsey [00:19:55]:
And I had recently, around that same time, had had a conversation with a client of mine where she had referenced she had discovered Salt, Fat, Acid, Leah. The it's a amazing book and cookbook, but it's also I think it's now on Netflix.

Leah Kern [00:20:08]:
Docuseries. Yeah.

Alissa Rumsey [00:20:10]:
Yeah. Docuseries with Samin Nosrat?

Leah Kern [00:20:13]:
Yeah. She lives in Oakland where I live. Yeah.

Alissa Rumsey [00:20:15]:
Oh, okay. Oh my gosh. Love her so much. And so this Kern of introduced Leah the conversation we've been having kind of before I took the sandwich voter was how here's someone on TV Who is not in your kind of typical, quote unquote, conventionally attractive to US standard bodies, who is just Eating and enjoying food. Not apologizing for it. Not talking about how she's gonna, like, Be bad, be good, be better, work at all, Kern, nothing. Just like eating food and enjoying it. And so this client and I had had this conversation.

Alissa Rumsey [00:20:52]:
And then so when I put this photo up, I kind of shared that story. And this other colleague of mine had Commented on that and said something about you know, it's something about how it's, like, so great to just see, like, women eating food. I think she had used the hashtag and I clicked on it, and there were 3 photos on Instagram at the time. There was women eating food. There were free photos tagged with that on Instagram. And this is like, Oh, man. 2019, I think. And the 3 photos were, like, thin white women, like, eating pizza or, like, something like that or, you know, some of them were, like, Sexually suggestive, like, bananas and stuff.

Alissa Rumsey [00:21:32]:
Like, it wasn't even, like, real food.

Leah Kern [00:21:34]:
Yeah.

Alissa Rumsey [00:21:34]:
A lot of them. And she and I were just like, this is wild. And so we're like, okay, let's just, like, post, like, eating, enjoying food, not apologizing for it, food on the face, like, whatever. And it was really I mean, it was amazing, the feedback that I got from that. I mean, so I mean, there's, like, 1,000 and 1,000 now. And As someone with thin privilege, with straight straight sized privilege, I didn't think about the fact that when I post a photo of myself eating whatever, a sandwich, Doughnuts, like, whatever. I was getting this praise of like, oh my gosh, it's so brave of you and, like, awesome, blah blah blah blah. And then in conversation with some friends and colleagues who are fat, they Kern like, oh, if I do that, that's not I'm gonna get, like, you're Glorifying obesity and, like, all this stuff.

Alissa Rumsey [00:22:26]:
You're a bad example for people. And I was just like, oh my god. I'd never thought about that. So it was kind of like this both And thing of just, you know, a time of, like, oh, this is something we don't see, just women eating food. And, like, if you Google it, Google it at the time, The Google image search of women eating food is like thin, white, conventionally attractive women eating salads versus men eating food was, like, All different kinds of food, not just like smiling at salads. And then also, like, holding this, like, oh, yeah. And this is also Part of my privilege that I can, like, post about this and get accolades and get, like, news stories written about this hashtag which happened. And So, yeah, it really started getting me thinking about, like, why don't we see people like this? You know, just thinking about how we We, as a society, view women eating food and especially people in bigger bodies.

Alissa Rumsey [00:23:21]:
And then, yeah, unapologetic eating, I think I, yeah, just kind of like Started I think in my Instagram bio, I had something about eating unapologetically Leah, like, the story is kind of funny. I won't go into the whole thing. But basically, this publisher had reached out to me Because they had learned of intuitive eating and kind of saw that it was trending upwards and they're like, woah, this is really interesting. And they wanted to bring some books into their they did a lot of, like, diet and other kind of books, recipe books. And So they approached me, and then they're like, if you ever wanted to write a book, what would you write about? I thought that this call with this publisher, I thought that it was fake. Like, I did not think this is gonna be real. I almost didn't respond to the Leah. And I, like, said the first thing that came to mind was about, like, you know, how food can be this, like, Entry point into doing this deeper work and kind of talked about that a little bit.

Alissa Rumsey [00:24:11]:
And they're like, cool. And they offered me a contract. I had no title for the book. They're like, don't worry about that. We'll figure that out down Road. And I still had, like, no title. And then as I was writing the manuscript, they were like, hey, we've been, like, talking about some ideas in the office, And the one everyone likes is unapologetic eating. And so they kind of, like, put it into words, although really funny.

Alissa Rumsey [00:24:34]:
So like a month before the publisher had even reached out, I'd been on this retreat, and we were doing this it's called Ikigai. It's this Japanese Exercise. It's like sort of like a brainstorming exercise. And I think maybe like a year after my book came out or the year my book came out, I was like, oh, I think I So, like, good ideas from that brainstorm. I should, like, go back and find my journal. And one of them was a book called Oncologetic Eating.

Leah Kern [00:24:58]:
Oh my god. And it makes sense because it was clearly something on your mind if it was in your Instagram bio of, like, eating unapologetically. But it

Alissa Rumsey [00:25:04]:
just wasn't something. Right? It was like all the different pieces were there, but I had to put it together. So, yeah, I think to me, it's just this idea of, like, Being in the moment with food, listening to your body, eating what you want, Kern, not apologizing, and then, like, going beyond food into just Being unapologetically yourself and sort of like peeling back all the layers from all the, like, shit society has put on us and all the stuff we've internalized. And it's like, who are we before society told us who we should be.

Leah Kern [00:25:36]:
So so beautiful. I love that take on it. To go back to what you were sharing Earlier. So in the book, you talk about Brie Campos who I think by the time this episode comes out, an episode with her will be out already. I have done a lot of mentorship with Kern. So it was cool to see her name in there. I'm like, oh, Bree. So you talk about how when you shared photos of yourself Eating, you were getting comments like you're so brave and like celebrating you.

Leah Kern [00:26:03]:
And then you were speaking to a colleague, Bree Campos, who is a therapist Who lives in a fat body who was like, oh my God. If I post things like that and I I have what you wrote from the book, like people said, and I'm quoting Things like, no wonder you're fat or keep eating piggy or she got unsolicited advice. And so for someone who hears that And isn't exactly clear on the connection, I guess. How do we explain this massive difference in reaction to Two photos of woman doing the same thing, eating. Why were you celebrated for food freedom, whereas Brie was scolded and met with horribly unkind Remarks.

Alissa Rumsey [00:26:43]:
That speaks to the anti fat bias that is just built into our culture. I mean, it's built into our healthcare system, it's Built into research. It's built into public health, and it's, you know, built into, like, media, movies, books, like, everything. It's this We're swimming in this, like, anti fat anti fat attitudes from basically the time that we're born. And I quote some statistics in the book of, Like children's movies and, you know, a, the percentage of characters who are fat is really tiny, and then the majority of them are villains, 2. And so, you know, this is something that even if we aren't consciously thinking of it, although a lot of people do Consciously think, like, oh, fat is bad, and, like, fat people are, you know, lazy, and they did it to themselves, like all these things that Our culture tells us. And then, you know, even if we're not you're not consciously thinking of it, we all do have beliefs about Body size that have been ingrained in us from our culture. And so that's a lot of the, like, Recognizing our own bias, I think that, you know, the comments Breeze getting speak to that of, you know, a, believing that fat is bad, and b, that it's something she did to herself and that they, as strangers on the Internet, should be able to, like, make comments and tell her how she should lose weight and that and assume that she needs to lose weight and, like, make all these assumptions about her based on her body size.

Alissa Rumsey [00:28:19]:
And people make assumptions for me and my body size, but they tend to be positive assumptions of, like, oh, like, she must be really healthy and she must Workout and me having food freedom and eating all these foods is met with positive. Even if people can't consciously know that this is happening, that's That's what's happening. It's positive because of how I look. And it's conversations I've even had with clients who will say to me Through our work together, I don't wanna admit this and this wasn't like totally conscious, but, like, part of me wanted to work with you because there's part of me that's thinking like, Oh, maybe if I do this intuitive eating thing, I'll look like Alyssa. Right? So, like, that is there. And the Tiny, like, example of that is the differing reactions to me eating whatever I want on Instagram versus brie.

Leah Kern [00:29:06]:
Yeah. I love how you bring out that it can either be Conscious, but more often it's unconscious of the reason the reaction is so different is because of the assumed underlying piece that our body sizes are choice when really there's so many systemic Factors and social determinants that are so much more beyond our immediate control. You also speak about Naomi Wolf. You quote her words from the beauty myth, which I'll read because if someone hasn't heard it just so beautifully put. She writes, A cultural fixation on female thinness is not an obsession about female beauty, but an obsession about female obedience. Dieting is the most potent political sedative in woman's history. A quietly mad population is a tractable one. And then you go on to explain that when we don't trust ourselves, we are more apt to look outwards for Who to trust, like the the diet plan, the calorie tracking app, the scale in order to validate ourselves.

Leah Kern [00:30:00]:
And so How exactly does diet culture serve as a force for controlling people?

Alissa Rumsey [00:30:09]:
You know, if we think about and, again, I'm speaking about as someone who lives in the United States of America, but also this is like that's in a lot of other countries at this Point. But if we think about who has the power in our society and who has historically had power in our Society, it's been white men. And, you know, this is part this is what Sabrina Strings, who I also quote, I think, in that same chapter about how She talks about how racism was something that was created by white people to, like, keep Black people down because yeah. If we don't if we are marginalized, if we are like pushed to the side because of a certain aspect our identity. If we are told that through the lens of, like, body size and dieting, if we're told that we can't trust ourselves, that we have to listen to someone else, Then it's a lot easier to Kern like control people and get them to do what you want them to do when They don't trust themselves. And when we spend so much time Thinking about how we look and trying to look a certain way and trying to live up to this quote unquote ideal that is present in our culture, this body ideal, this Karyn's ideal. Like, what what's all the other stuff we would do if we weren't spending time doing that? Right? We're, like, not In our power, we're not able to do so many other things, and this is what I find. So so life changing about this work, you know, when my clients Start doing this work and as less and less brain space is spent thinking about food in their bodies, I mean, I've literally people say to me, I don't even know what to do at this time.

Alissa Rumsey [00:31:53]:
Like, I need to find some new hot like, what do I do at this time? Because it's just been so much of their life. And if we think about people who are not thinking about all of that, what are the things they're doing? So yeah, I think for me, this Making this connection between diet culture being a way that Like, the systems of oppression, it's like one of the ways that it's carried out just through People believing that they have to look a certain way and that they have to look outside of themselves to look this way. And so it's really part of this, like, larger system of oppression in our culture.

Leah Kern [00:32:38]:
Those, like, deeper layers that Are so important to highlight because I think people stumble into this work and have no idea that like it's really gonna lead to Social justice work and freeing up time, energy, bandwidth, then therefore restoring your power and So many of these like deeper pieces. I think right after that in the book, there's this great timeline you have of the history of different Beauty standards, which I loved. And you write how in Western society, woman's ideal body has shifted every decade or so throughout 20th century. Again, this is by design. So when you say it's by design and how Ever changing beauty ideals are keeping women distracted. How are ever changing beauty ideals keeping women distracted? And like, why? Like, why is this happening? Why is this By design, what does that mean?

Alissa Rumsey [00:33:31]:
Yeah. So something that was so fascinating and horrifying to me as I was researching for my book. And I'd sort of, like, Seeing bits and pieces about this, but kind of seeing it altogether when I was researching about how things that we just take for granted as being, like, Gray hair. Like, oh, you get gray hair, you dye it. Oh, you shave you're a woman, you shave your legs. Oh, Wrinkles are bad. Like, all of these things, cellulite. Don't want cellulite.

Alissa Rumsey [00:34:00]:
Like, all these things that we Kern just take as or that I know I did, and I think a lot of people take as just like how things are are actually ideals that people created. And, specifically, Leah think about, you know, A lot of it was through advertising to sell products. So, like, for example, with shaving, like, women didn't used to Collectively Leah their legs, but there is a razor company who, you know, was marketing towards Kern. And then we're like, okay, we need a bigger market share. And then they started marketing and advertisements about how, like, smooth legs were were the thing, and a similar thing happened with hair dye. And, Yeah. All of these things is we just take is like, oh, this is this is what beauty is, are actually standards that were created. And, yeah, very similar with With dieting and with, like, body ideals too, is that I might have referenced Naomi Wolf's book again in in this section.

Alissa Rumsey [00:35:03]:
But, yeah, you know, the sort of ideal quote unquote body type for women Changed about every decade. And also and so funny, this just came up. I was visiting a friend last week and she was kinda like, yeah, like, women had all this, You know, Kern of more freedom in the twenties, and then it just went backwards. What happened? And I was like, yeah. And this is what we're seeing right now in our culture, Right? If, like, all of these things have happened, and now, you know, in this context, like, conservatives and people on the right are kind of like it's coming to, like, blowback about, like, All these these different changes. And it was very similar where women would get more power, and then it was like, Kern, like different sort of beauty standard of, like, Let's distract them again.

Leah Kern [00:35:46]:
Push them down. Yeah.

Alissa Rumsey [00:35:47]:
Push them down again and and keep them quiet, basically. So yeah. Like, that quote you read from Naomi Wolf's book. Like, it is this really We're full Kern of sedative because it does keep us not in our power and focus just like on ourselves and how we look rather than focused on All the things that are wrong with the way that the people in charge are, like, running the world.

Leah Kern [00:36:14]:
Yeah. The part of your book where you went through, like, all different beauty Leah, like, You know, smooth skin and shaved legs and being thin and, you know, no cellulite, all those things. That was so interesting because it's Kern my head, I'm always like, oh, yeah, the beauty ideal. But, like, I never really have kind of broken it down into, like, each part of the body head to toe that We feel like we have to, like, do something to change in order to be acceptable or to be, you know, like, to gain, like, social capital and be seen as, Like a valid woman. And I'm so interested by the part of your story where you were speaking on experimenting with divesting from certain Beauty ideals, and you shared about how you were experimenting with going, like, makeup less. And I think you said, like, you felt Going into a restaurant in New York City makeup list, at one point, like, you felt naked. And I'm curious to hear how has that journey evolved. Like, Do you still go makeup list? Do you still feel naked out in the world? Makeup list.

Leah Kern [00:37:15]:
It's something I'm so a part of your story I'm really Interested in it, I think I learned about from you before your book,

Alissa Rumsey [00:37:21]:
the experiment with makeup. And before I say that, I also wanna acknowledge that I work for myself. I'm not going to an office and meet certain, like, standards of professionalism. Also, I'm white and Relatively young, even as I age, and, you know, meet a lot of the conventional, quote unquote, standards of beauty. And so it's much easier for me to go makeup free because it doesn't actually impact the money I make. For example, there's a lot of research that shows that when women aren't as, like, groomed, which has to do with, like, doing their hair and makeup. They actually make less money. So I think I'm gonna talk about My own divesting from these standards and just always want to acknowledge that I understand why people continue to, you know, Leah makeup, and and there might be other reasons that people do this, but it absolutely can affect your earning power, promotions at work, how people see you, especially when you're not Someone like me who's a straight size young white woman.

Leah Kern [00:38:22]:
I'm glad you said that.

Alissa Rumsey [00:38:23]:
So yeah. I think, you know, certainly my privilege made this experiment easier, and, you know, I was someone who's been wearing makeup since high school every day, basically. And what happened was I Went on a trip to southern Spain, and it was summertime. And I was gone for a couple of weeks, and it was like, I didn't realize that southern Spain in August is, a 100 plus degrees. And I also have naturally curly hair that I've spent a good majority of my life straightening. And I was in Spain, and I was traveling with a guy friend of mine, and I literally did not do my hair or put on makeup, Like, basically, the whole time, and didn't think anything of it. It just kind of, like, happened. And then I get back to New York, and yeah.

Alissa Rumsey [00:39:07]:
And then I was, like, going out to dinner. And I was, like, putting on a full face like, felt like I had to put on a whole full face of makeup. And it was the 1st time that I actually paused, and I was like, wait, why do I feel like I I I'm, like, literally feeling like I have to. I'm like, I just went a month and did not do my hair or put on makeup the entire month, and I was, like, going out to dinner and doing all this stuff. Now I'm like back in my day to day routine, and I'm feeling like, oh, no, I can't I can't go to dinner tonight without makeup on. And so it just made me I mean, I think I did wear makeup that night, but it did just make me start to question, why do I feel like I have to? And I slowly started, like, playing with that. And again, was able to. Started, like, not wearing makeup as often, not doing, like, a full face of makeup, And I still do.

Alissa Rumsey [00:39:55]:
I mean, I maybe wear makeup like once or twice a month now. The last thing to go for me and I still do that. I mean, I did them today. I have, like, very sparse eyebrows. And so that was one that I, like, never left the house without my eyebrows done. Now I do all the time. I mean, it took, like, years of really kind of, like, questioning, leaning into the pretty extreme discomfort of, like but then also seeing, Nothing changed. There wasn't this, like, huge difference in reaction that people had.

Alissa Rumsey [00:40:27]:
Like, you know, nothing really Changed in my day to day life when I wasn't wearing makeup, and it saved me a lot of time. Money, oh my god. Absolutely. Leah, yeah, I think just For me, it was like, okay, I have the ability to question these things and it's not going to, like, greatly negatively impact my life to do so. So what is it like to play with this? And I think there can be a lot of power in playing with certain things, and it doesn't mean that we have to, like, completely outright reject them. But I think it means that we get to, like, pick and choose, you know, what are the things that I want to do? What am I doing for me? What am I doing for others? And there are absolutely times, like, I just did a speaking gig where they're paying me a good deal of money. I'd put a full face of makeup on. It's like there are certainly times where, You know, I and again, for people that are working in jobs or who, you know, there are potentially, like, material effects So them not looking, quote unquote, well groomed, that the studies call it.

Alissa Rumsey [00:41:25]:
By the way, like, the the research on it, it's very cis Normative, but, like, men and women. But it's like men's grooming does not affect their pay or earning potential. All only women, cis women, Of course. So so yeah. I think for me, it was just really fascinating to to play with that. And But it also it's been interesting, like, with the work that I do of getting comments of I remember years ago, someone You know, I'd paid them to consult with them, and they showed up to a call Leah they're like, oh, I didn't put my eyelashes on. I was gonna run and do it. And then I was like, oh, I'm talking to Alyssa.

Alissa Rumsey [00:42:02]:
Like, She won't care. And I'm like, oh my god. Like, how cool is that? Yeah. Right. Me showing up as myself is allowing other people to do so. And so That also has made me, like, make an intentional effort to, like I don't put on makeup for my work most days, and I don't see clients with makeup on. And I had another client say the same thing recently Leah like, oh, I, like, was gonna do my makeup and then, like, rush to do it. I slept in, and then I was like, no, I I can it's just Alyssa.

Alissa Rumsey [00:42:30]:
Like, I can. And I'm like, okay, that's so cool that, like, they're starting to do it. I was also traveling and A friend, like, saw me all week not wearing makeup, and, like, she put on a full face every morning and then didn't say anything about either one of those things, but just, like, noticed it. And then by, like, day, like, 8 or 9, she I noticed that she didn't put on makeup 1 morning. I didn't say anything. And then she said to me she was like, I've been Watching you all week, just Kern makeup and, like, fully just like being yourself. And she's like, this feels, like, so uncomfortable, but I you've, like, inspired me to Try that. So, like, that's also just really you know, I think for the work that I do, I actually think it's a positive thing that I can show up just as myself and, you know, maybe inspire some others to just feel comfortable at least on a call with me to not have to feel like they have to, like, look a certain way.

Leah Kern [00:43:21]:
Yeah. I think it's really speaks to the ripple effect of this work of like just, you're not even proselytizing, like folks shouldn't wear makeup. In fact, you just said, like, there's so many reasons why you might wear makeup, but just leading by example of just being your authentic self and doing what feels good for you. People notice that and It can have impacts. I love the story about like your clients being like, Oh, it's just Alyssa, like I don't have to Get all dolled up. And it's almost like ironic to like really get super dressed up and like put a full face of makeup on when you're doing work about being, You know, your unapologetic self and your authentic self. I love that so much. You acknowledge your privilege a few times, which Is so important in this work, especially because it's a podcast and people can't, like, see us.

Leah Kern [00:44:06]:
And I have a lot of the same privileges as you Being white, cisgendered, relatively young and meeting a lot of beauty standards without makeup and all those things, I'm curious to hear from you. How have you navigated being someone with multiple privileges, promoting unapologetic eating, and divesting from beauty

Alissa Rumsey [00:44:27]:
So when I got this book contract, I definitely had, like, a little bit of a spiral of, like, Who am I to write this book? Like, there's so many other people doing this work and, like, really kind of being, like, Feeling feeling guilty. And I had a conversation with a mentor of mine at the time, and She was like, Alyssa, that guilt helps no one. She also suggested equity readers or equity consultants. So she suggested this idea, and I started looking into it. And it's really related to hiring people who have different identities than I did To read my book and look at it through their own lenses and to give me feedback on, you know, some places where maybe I missed the mark or didn't consider things. So I did that. I hired 2 people. And one of them, Mackenzie Mac, is this amazing I learned so much from them.

Alissa Rumsey [00:45:30]:
Really amazing human. And I was actually, like, really nervous for our 1st call, and I was, like, really set to, like, take in some, like, hard feedback. And They were just like they were so great, and I actually shared with them because I think they said some they asked me some question of, like, what Something about, like, what are you most nervous about or something with writing this book? And I and I said I was like, I have this feeling that I, like, shouldn't be the one writing this, blah Leah. And they said to me, They're like, look. Again, the guilt helps no one, and they said they're like, I'm a fat black trans person. If I wrote this book, White women probably wouldn't read it. They're like, so, yes, you have a lot of privilege, but how can you take that privilege and know that because of that privilege, you're gonna reach a certain audience that I Probably won't. So how can you use that privilege and use that power that you've been given Through no nothing I've done, just like how I was born.

Alissa Rumsey [00:46:26]:
Yeah. This unearned privilege. Like, how can I be thoughtful and intentional about How I used that? And that was such a helpful framing for me because it took me because again, me feeling guilty, That doesn't help anyone. Me being, like, quiet doesn't help because I feel guilty doesn't help anyone. So it really Was helpful and made me really intentional, for example, on the people I quoted in a book, the the references I use. It's really trying to point people towards, like, plant the seeds and really make sure I was not, you know, just quoting a whole bunch of people that look like me and share identity is with me, but like a variety of people. And so, you know, I think that framing was really helpful because it was like, yeah. Part of how I got that book contract part was because of of my privileges and how can I Acknowledge that and, like, take that forward because I do have a chance to, like, reach people that others might might not? And so that was was really helpful.

Alissa Rumsey [00:47:30]:
And that's something I've continued to think about in this work of like, when is a good time to, like, step forward? When's a good time to step back? You know, how can I Share some of these opportunities, like pass them along to other people? Like, yeah. Just it's something I continue to to ask myself and have done Further consultation with other people specifically in our community of, like, what would be most helpful and what are some things I can think about and, like, paid for this consultation. So I think, you know, it's something and acknowledging my privileges feels kinda like the bare minimum so that people know this was another concept Mackenzie introduced me to a positionality of I can only speak from my lens because, right, I'm sharing my identities because those shape the way that I Experience the world. Right? It's not that we don't all have stuff to add, but just really being clear on, like, what is the lens that we're coming from? So, yeah, those those are some of the things that I continue to think about and take forward in this work.

Leah Kern [00:48:33]:
Thank you for sharing that. I think you do it so masterfully because like all your mentors said, it's like it's not helping anyone to Feel guilty and not share this incredibly powerful work with the world. And I could understand the feelings of hesitation, like wanting to get it Right. And not wanting to overshadow people with different lived experiences. Yeah. I think you do it so beautifully. So We have a few wrap up questions I ask everyone. The first is what is your biggest diet culture pet peeve?

Alissa Rumsey [00:49:03]:
I guess what's coming to mind is intermittent fasting and counting macros because I feel like Those are 2 that I still see people, like, really doing, and there's so much misinformation out there about it. And it just, like, really f's people up doing those things. Like, it really I mean, all sorts of diets disconnect us from our bodies, but those 2. I think 2 because the way intermittent fasting is framed is, like, not as a diet, but has this, Health thing. Right? It's like diet culture in disguise. And so people are kind of thinking at it that it's different, but it's not. And, yeah, I just see people, like, struggling so hard after coming off of of one of those eating patterns. So those are probably, like, 2 that drive me the most nuts right now.

Alissa Rumsey [00:49:57]:
But I've also been seeing a lot of clients coming in who've, like, done those recently and are just. Yeah.

Leah Kern [00:50:02]:
It's current. Cool.

Alissa Rumsey [00:50:03]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Leah Kern [00:50:04]:
Leah. Intermittent fasting, I feel like, has this energy of, like, biohacking and optimization and, like, you're more productive when you're hungry. And I'm like, oh, that's just, like, so irritating.

Alissa Rumsey [00:50:14]:
Yes. Oh my god. Biohacking, another pet peeve. Oh my god. And, of course, Azempic, which that's a whole another conversation. Whole another. Yeah. Absolutely a huge pet peeve.

Alissa Rumsey [00:50:23]:
And it's just gonna get bigger, and it's, yeah, Perfect. I think it's Yeah.

Leah Kern [00:50:29]:
For someone listening, just tuning into this, I did an episode with a dear friend who shared about her journey on Ozempic. I'm actually my old roommate from Brooklyn who lives in a larger body and went on it, went off of it, shared her whole story. So yeah.

Alissa Rumsey [00:50:43]:
And it's like I get why people do it, and I have clients on it or have been on it, and it just oh, the side effects are so bad.

Leah Kern [00:50:53]:
Yeah. The other question I'd like to ask everyone is, you know, we talk a lot about intuitive eating and more broadly like connecting with your body and your intuition. I'm always really interested in how people define intuition because I think it's such a loaded word that we kind of throw around without like actually speaking directly to like, what does this mean? So what does intuition mean to you, and how do you experience it?

Alissa Rumsey [00:51:15]:
That's a beautiful question. And now I wanna go back and listen to all your other episodes and see. So yeah. And the first thing that comes to mind for me is it's like mind body connection and is I actually read A quote from a philosopher that I need to look into this more, just this is just the other day, that was saying that, you know, the body sensations Actually developed first, and our brain developed to, like, be able to read what our body was saying. And I was like, woah, that's so fascinating because most most of us live from, like, the neck up, just like in our head. And so for me, I think a big part of intuition is really being connected to the body sensations And not Kern guessing those and, like, trusting though like, getting to know them, understand what they mean, trusting those things, And really just, like, paying attention to my gut instinct and not overriding it as like, oh, no. No. That can't be happening.

Alissa Rumsey [00:52:12]:
Like, no. You're being silly. And I have, like, specific instances that I can think of where I was like literally like, no, Alyssa. Like, you're being stupid. This is not gonna happen, blah blah blah blah Leah. And then, like, the thing happened. So, Yeah. That to me, like, this mind body connection and really trusting the information that your body is giving you.

Alissa Rumsey [00:52:35]:
And and I talk a little bit in my book about the concept of, like, Felt sense. This, like, intuition and felt, like, gut feeling.

Leah Kern [00:52:42]:
Something that no one outside of you can, like, market to you or package up and sell you. You spoke so beautifully to Leah, like, where the name of this podcast comes from. So the podcast is called Shoulders Down, and it's about living from your body. And I I, like, rarely talk about the meaning behind it. People think it's like relax, like put your shoulders down, which kind of does work, but it's about like, like you said, so much of Kern of diet mentality and just, like, honestly, our modern society is living neck up, shoulders up. And I I like to say too, like, it's important. Like, What's in the brain is important. Right? Like, we shouldn't just, like, only live shoulders down, but I think the ratio of how much we're living in the head versus the body is, like, totally off.

Leah Kern [00:53:22]:
Exactly.

Alissa Rumsey [00:53:22]:
I love that.

Leah Kern [00:53:23]:
Is there anything else we missed or anything on your heart that you're feeling called to share?

Alissa Rumsey [00:53:29]:
We kinda touched on this a little bit. And again, this is, like, really the crux of unapologetic eating of of the book is that Food. Yes. It's about intuitive eating. It's about relationship to food and body, and it is so much more than that. And when you learn to trust yourself around food, that trust bleeds into all other aspects of your life. And I see this with people Trusting themselves at work more, being more communicative with their partners or families. And this work is so much bigger than just food.

Alissa Rumsey [00:54:02]:
Like, yes, It is about having a better relationship with food or food freedom as some people define it, and it's just so much bigger than that. And that was really I mean, this is literally what I said in my 1st pitch to the publisher. I was like, it's so much bigger than that, and I wanna communicate to people that it's like, goes beyond the food. I quote one of my friends in the book who talks about, you know, we're all going up the same mountain, just different paths. And I think for a lot of people, this Path of, like, starting with food is a really amazing way of building self awareness and just getting more clear on your intuition on what you want, Not just with food and eating, but with all these other things in life.

Leah Kern [00:54:43]:
It's such a powerful avenue into, like, deeper self work in general and self knowing. Absolutely. Alyssa, where can people find you to learn more about your work or stay connected with you?

Alissa Rumsey [00:54:54]:
So you can go to my website, alisarumseydot com. My book, Unapologetic Eating, is sold wherever books are sold. And I'm also on Instagram at alisarumsey r d.

Leah Kern [00:55:05]:
Awesome. Thank you so much, Alyssa. It was so wonderful chatting today.

Alissa Rumsey [00:55:09]:
Yeah. Thank you again for having me, Leah.

Leah Kern [00:55:16]:
Thanks so much for tuning in to this week's episode of shoulders down. If you enjoyed the episode, if it inspired you, or if you Kern something, consider sharing it with someone to help spread the anti diet message. A special thanks to Softer Sounds for producing the podcast and making these conversations sound as beautiful as they feel. For more intuitive eating and body image support, visit leokernrd.com and check out the blog and our free resources. To stay in tune with me and what's happening in my business and personal life, subscribe to my newsletter at leokernrd.com/newsletter. Thanks for listening. Talk to you soon.