Natalie Stine [00:00:00]:
““Where is this information coming from and who's deciding why this has to be that way?  I question it because if our research has been so ingrained with shadows of normalcy, I just can't imagine that there aren't other ways of eating that wouldn't be just as beneficial.””

Leah Kern [00:00:08]:
Welcome to shoulders down, a podcast for truth seekers who want to heal their relationships with food and body. I'm your host, Leah Kern, and I'm an anti diet dietitian, certified intuitive eating counselor, and fellow truth seeker with personal experience navigating disordered eating. In this podcast, you'll learn to harness your body's innate wisdom to govern not just how you eat, but also how you live. It's my mission to help you heal your relationship with food and body, so you can live your most aligned and fulfilling life. Welcome, and I'm so glad that you're here. Hello, and welcome back to another episode of shoulders down. Today, we have a guest on the podcast covering a topic that we have definitely not covered yet, and I am really just so glad that I got connected with someone who can speak on this really nuanced part of the intuitive eating framework. So today's topic is about the intersection of intuitive eating and neurodiversity.

Leah Kern [00:01:08]:
Today's guest is Natalie Steen, who I got connected to because she heard me speak on someone else's podcast about cannabis and intuitive eating. And was pretty much just like saying that a lot of the things I was saying, she also sees in her clients and she was so glad that another dietitian talking about this. And then we hit it off and we started chatting and she shared that she really enjoys speaking on the intersection of neurodiversity and intuitive eating. So I can't wait for you to hear today's conversation. I was, like, having my mind blown while we were speaking. I really learned so much in real time during this conversation with Natalie. So I'm gonna introduce Natalie and then we will dive right into today's episode. Natalie Steen is a proud anti diet registered dietitian and certified intuitive eating counselor with a passion for helping clients discover wellness within and move towards a more peaceful relationship with food, body acceptance, and trust, and integrating movement in an intuitive and joyful way.

Leah Kern [00:02:02]:
She specializes in treating eating disorders as well as supporting those who are struggling with disordered eating and chronic dieting. As a late diagnosed ADHD and mother of a spicy neurodivergent kiddo, Natalie brings a unique perspective to the conversation about how to navigate an intuitive eating journey as a neurodivergent individual. Natalie received her BS in diet culture, AKA dietetics in 2015 at Indiana University of Pennsylvania and completed her dietetic internship at Adego Health, a nonprofit organization in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. She currently works in a group private practice and offers virtual nutrition services to clients in over 20 states. Welcome to the podcast, Natalie. I'm so looking forward. I feel like we don't really know each other, so I'm gonna get to know each other live right now.

Natalie Stine [00:02:45]:
Yeah. I'm looking forward to it as well. Thanks for having me on, Leah.

Leah Kern [00:02:49]:
Of course. And so we got connected from a podcast I did about cannabis and intuitive eating, and you reached out and you were like, oh my gosh. Yes. This topic. And then we started chatting. Right? That's how it went down.

Natalie Stine [00:03:00]:
Yeah. Just like seeing somebody talking about things that sometimes comes up in sessions with clients that I've yet to see other dietitians talk about it. I was just like, oh, this is cool. I have to reach out to them.

Leah Kern [00:03:11]:
Yeah. And I'm so glad you did because you bring such a unique perspective that we haven't addressed on the podcast yet. So we'll get into talking about, like, the intersection of intuitive eating and neurodivergence. Before we do that, I'd love to give you the floor to share your story with your relationship with food and body as much as you're comfortable getting into.

Natalie Stine [00:03:30]:
Yeah. I'd love to. I will say it's a tidbit long, but I have notes to keep me on track. So, yeah, growing up, it was a really interesting, like, dichotomy around food and body. You know, my family is predominantly Polish, and we very much celebrated our heritage with food throughout the year and especially food during holidays. I mean, a lot of family members showed their love for food too. Like, I remember going to my grandma's house, and her, like, first question she'd asked is, are you hungry? Do you need something to eat? And things like that. And, you know, late 19 100, early 2000, family very, very ingrained in diet culture and, you know, a lot of fat bias and fat shaming.

Natalie Stine [00:04:18]:
So, like, it was interesting to have the mix of, like, really celebrating and pleasure and joy, but then there's, like, confusion and shame and guilt. And then on top of all of that, we also were, you know, lower socioeconomic status and struggled with food insecurity, and so it's just the perfect storm for an eating disorder in some ways. And just with, like, my family and our genetics, I was always bigger, a taller kid than my peers, and just felt, like, different too. So there was a lot of bullying and fat shaming there as well. Around high school time, I believe, I started to gain weight and doctors were concerned. And I will say there was a smidge of validity to the concern because, you know, some of my labs were abnormal, but, you know, no one thought to ask any questions about any eating disorder or eating patterns. Like, the early 2000 pretty much were like, you're fat. This is bad.

Natalie Stine [00:05:18]:
What you're doing must be, like, wrong, so just fix it. And from there, it just, like, all went downhill, being put on medication that were used, like, off label for weight loss, meeting with a dietitian, like, in high school, like, every other week for weight loss, and it was just, like, making everything worse, obviously. So, yeah, like, end of high school time, yeah, around senior year, figuring out what I wanted to go to school for, I had this thought. I was like, well, I'm just gonna go to school for nutrition because I can finally, you know, quote, figure it out. And, also, looking back, it's kind of a really sad decision too because I remember having these thoughts, like, well, I already talk about this stuff all the time. Might as well make a career out of it. And it it wasn't something I was super passionate about at all. I literally wanted to go to school to be a hairstylist and cosmetologist, which is kinda funny because I have purple hair, and I'm still, like, living my dream vicariously for getting my hair done all the time.

Natalie Stine [00:06:17]:
But, like, in in the 2000, it's just unacceptable to not go to college. So I was like, I had to pick something and, you know, I talked about all the time. So, like, that was it, and that's where I went. So, yeah, then from there, like, my eating disorder kinda took a turn into, like, more compulsive movement because growing up, again, like, lower socioeconomic status. Status, we didn't have money for a gym membership or anything like that. So, you know, I get to school, and I have this whole big campus fitness center, and it was so massive and amazing. And so I just, like, started just getting obsessed. And, like, there was some joy and pleasure to it as well, but it was just, like, this new outlet for those disordered thoughts to be fueled and funneled into.

Natalie Stine [00:06:59]:
And so, yeah, like, all throughout college, like, I was just silently struggling with an undiagnosed eating disorder, cycling through a massive amounts of of diets, and just, like, all going under the radar because, like, I didn't fit that stereotypical mold of an eating disorder. But then also with, like, how pervasive diet culture is, I do imagine people probably were just looking at me like, oh, she's just going to school to be a dietitian. Like, this makes sense why she would be doing these things and focusing on this. So, yeah, then my senior year, I got engaged to my now husband and that just, like, really just added even more fuel to the fire with this silly pressure of, like, getting wedding ready and, like, all of my disordered behaviors were just magnified for that purpose. And I was a miserable, irritable person during that time. Like, it was just not a good time in my life. I think that was probably, like, the lowest point of, like, my disordered eating. And then when I finally became a dietitian, things just slowly started to shift.

Natalie Stine [00:08:03]:
And one of my first jobs as a dietitian was at a state university, and, you know, that kind of forced me to get out of this, like, complete orthorexic land of of eating because I was working as, like, the campus dietitian under dining services. And, like, there was no way for me to go on these, like, orthorexic tangents trying to, like, get rid of French fries and pizza and all this stuff because those were just like the moneymakers on a university campus. And so I was forced to basically start to become comfortable with this idea of, like, quote, unhealthy foods existing in a healthy eating pattern. It's like that's what they wanted me to talk about with the students. And this was actually the first time I started to hear about Health at Every Size and intuitive eating, practicing intuitive eating from that diet culture lens of the hunger fullness diet because I just didn't know any better at the time. And I just remember being a fence straddler, you know, with, like, the standard anti haze, anti intuitive eating rhetoric that still shows up today. That was kind of where my mind was at.

Leah Kern [00:09:17]:
Can you share what you mean by that? What are the standards? Because to you and I, we're like, oh, yeah. Like, we know the criticisms.

Natalie Stine [00:09:22]:
Yeah. I think the how could you possibly, like, just have full permission to eat food? Like, there has to be some element of control, restraints because, again, like, weight loss was still such a big preoccupation, like, personally and professionally. So it was, like, intubating with restraint, still levels of distrust with the body, and then just the anti hate rhetoric of promoting the o word and things like that. That was kind of where my mind was at because my bachelor's degree, I learned a lot, but I also learned a lot of diet culture too. So how could I not think those things if that's where I was coming from? Totally. So you're kind

Leah Kern [00:10:01]:
of flirting with the idea of intuitive eating and Health at Every Size at this point, but as you said, very much fence straddling and, like, subscribing to the traditional objections to haste and intuitive eating. What happens from there?

Natalie Stine [00:10:13]:
So I worked there for, I thought, like, 3 ish years, and then good old COVID happened. And for me, in some weird ways, COVID kinda saved my life, both physically and mentally, because a year earlier, I had just given birth to my son in December 2018. And from that time to summer of 2020, I was starting to, like, go off the rails again with my disordered eating, and it wasn't like the getting wedding ready. Now it was like, I have to get my body back and, like, that, you know, typical postpartum preoccupation that shows up after having a child. And then it was going off the rails, I say, because, like, I was even more obsessed because it was way harder to accomplish this. You know, not only the body's resiliency, which, like, I've learned a lot about now being a certified community counselor and how, like, the body really tries to fight back with what's happening, but also I was an adult working full time. I was doing my master's degree part time. I was taking care of an infant.

Natalie Stine [00:11:19]:
And, like, for some 6 months of that time too, like, single parenting because my husband being in the military, he deployed for 6 full months, and it's like, I'm trying to do all of this and be so stressed out about my body and, like, control it. So intense and, like, even more than the previous time. I guess maybe that might be my lowest point. But then in May 2020, I was laid off from the university because of the effects of COVID and students not being on campus, and the only job for a dietitian in the area at that time was at an eating disorder treatment center. So literally needing a job, I applied and I got it. And weird enough too, like, I remember few months into my career as a dietitian, like, thinking eating disorders would be cool to work with. I don't know where my mind was, why I was thinking those things. But then, I think that made it appealing too.

Natalie Stine [00:12:11]:
It's like, oh, I've thought about this before. So, like, let's apply. Let's see. That was a giant wake up call. And this is how messed up my mind was with diet culture. Like, I remember weeks leading up to my start date being so preoccupied with how much weight I was losing, what I was eating, and, like, being so worried that these people that I was going to be working with were going to judge me for how fat I was at this job. Like, literally at an eating disorder treatment center. Like, that's how diet culture messes with your mind so much.

Natalie Stine [00:12:44]:
Then the 1st day of, training, I'm just sitting there listening to recordings or going over the different presentations or going over the DSM, and I'm just like, holy crap. I have a problem. And I've had a really big problem back then that, like, nobody knew about or saw. And I was like, if I don't figure this out, I'm gonna have a bigger problem again. I am probably gonna relapse and, like, really go back to that place. Like, I mean, I obviously wasn't happy. I was, like, completely obsessed with food. Food was, like, one of the biggest things on my mind, obviously, like, not spending time with my son because I was meal prepping.

Natalie Stine [00:13:18]:
Like, that was, like, the point of, okay, this has to stop because this is a legit thing. And, also, because I needed a job, I was like, I have to lean into this. Like, I can't not work, and I'm the type of person that I cannot be a hypocrite. So if I'm going to be supporting these clients, educating them, teaching them to do things differently, I can't do that for myself. That would just make me feel internally awful if I'm here in my personal life doing all the same thing that they're doing, but then telling them to do different. Like, that would have just been so for me to do. So I just jumped in head first and committed, and it was, like, really hard. But, like, as I started learning more and more, like, it just made so much sense, and it really lined up with my values so much better that, like, I just couldn't even fathom going back into diet culture land.

Natalie Stine [00:14:10]:
And then, like, when I was working at the treatment center, like, bringing it back to kind of what we're here to talk about today, the 1st couple months, I just felt really off. I've never worked at that capacity before because, treatment centers, I think they're great, but also, like, there is a lot of, like, burnout and overworking of the staff. So I really started to notice some of my challenges. And then TikTok started popping up all these videos about neurodivergent and ADHD on my feet. And I'm like, Tom, wow. This sounds really true. Like, this is what happens for me. And so I called my mom the one day, and I was like, mom, I think I might have ADHD.

Natalie Stine [00:14:54]:
I keep seeing these TikToks of these challenges and the way people navigate things. They just feel very true for what happens for me. And she had told me that when I was a kid. My brother has ADHD too, so, like, she was familiar with that. And so she had taken me to the pediatrician and then asked, I think my daughter might have ADHD. Like, what do you think? Like, is this a possibility? What my mom told me is they had basically said, like, how's she doing at school? I was doing great. I was a straight a student, but, like, internally, I was a hot mess. Like, just trying to keep up with things.

Natalie Stine [00:15:28]:
But, like, you don't ask a child that. They don't know how to, like, verbalize that either with how they're doing. You're just going off of, like, what you're observing as the parent. So, yeah, I wasn't diagnosed, and I just told that it was, like, anxiety or something else for all these years. You know, after that conversation with my mom, I made an appointment with my provider, and they went through the whole, like, screening assessment, and it was just every answer was a yes almost. And it was, you know, everybody has, like, mixed experiences. For me, it was so relieving because I had, like, spent all these years of my life feeling different, thinking I'm just, like, bad at life and not being able to, like, do these things that I should be able to do. And, like, it's not me.

Natalie Stine [00:16:12]:
It is, but it's not me not wanting or being able to do these things. Just, like, my brain is literally built different. And then I left the treatment center, started working at a group practice doing outpatient work, and I felt like I didn't learn much about how to support ARFID clients and feeding differences during my work at the treatment center. And then my own son, he was growing up and starting to show signs of being neurodivergent and being a very selective eater. So I just started doing, you know, as much research and learning as I could about the topic. And it's just been so eye opening, like, even as I continue to learn because I now have these, like, opportunities to sort through, like, my life and what's happened in the past and, like, see what behaviors or patterns of eating or eating disorder or diet culture related versus just the feeding difference, just the way I navigate eating differently. And it's made it made it easier to be me in some way. Like, there's not a lot of shame around, like, my differences differences and, like, giving myself accommodations and and things like that.

Natalie Stine [00:17:16]:
Learning all this stuff has just been revolutionary for me in, like, personal and professional life.

Leah Kern [00:17:22]:
I hear that. Natalie, thank you for sharing so much of your story and the the different layers of your story. Right? The personal, the professional. Where in your story do you become an intuitive eating counselor?

Natalie Stine [00:17:36]:
Yeah. So it's actually fairly recent. So I when was it? November of this year? But prior to that like, when I first started working at the treatment center, they were half the every size aligned and 2 to beating aligned, so I learned a lot there. Financially, I didn't have the resources to pursue the certification, but always wanted to. So, like, I've been practicing intuitive eating as a professional since 2020, and then it's just been recently that I finally been able to go through the course and get the certification.

Leah Kern [00:18:10]:
Awesome. And in your own story and your personal and professional story, like you mentioned the initial stage of being a fence straddler, what helped you from going from fence straddling to all in intuitive eating, Health at Every Size?

Natalie Stine [00:18:25]:
I think it was 2 things. The first, the research and the evidence behind intuitive eating and Health at Every Size, like, having professionals be able to say that, no. It's okay to be a bigger person. It's okay to eat for what your body needs. You know you know, all those years growing up with, like, mistrust of my body and people telling me not to trust my body, it was very helpful to have, like, professionals and experts in this field give that permission to do those things. And then also because I worked at a treatment center, most of my friends were dietitians doing this work and therapists. I had this, like, very supportive community that not many people would get unless they're in that specific setting. I didn't have to deal with, like, the friends questioning you or the family members making comments or or things like that.

Natalie Stine [00:19:28]:
I had this, like, little safe bubble to kind of, like, deal with the things and and learn to be okay with it.

Leah Kern [00:19:34]:
Mhmm. Yeah. That's such a unique opportunity. Unique to being a dietitian working in this space of having the most nonjudgmental people around you. People who are gonna truly support this work and not, like, contribute diet comments to the problem. And so we've kind of thrown around the word neurodivergence, and I think most people listening to this know what neurodivergence is. But just to kind of get everyone on the same page, what is neurodiversity? And can you speak on the importance of really understanding common traits of the neurodivergent mind and how that relates to intuitive eating?

Natalie Stine [00:20:07]:
Yeah. Neurodiversity is the diversity among human minds, just like other forms of diversity with our ethnicity, our gender, our sexual identity. And so a neurodivergent individual would be a person who doesn't fit into those dominant norms or traits of how my mind operates. And the importance of understanding this and, like, some of the traits that we'll get into is that there's a lot of ableism within neurodivergence, and, you know, this can often lead to pathologizing eating patterns or eating differences. And so I've seen this a lot with, you know, labeling autistic traits that show up with eating as eating disorder behaviors when it's it's not, like, it's not harmful. And in some cases, it could be actually, like, helpful. So, like, an example of that being, like, hyperactivity or stimming and, like, not being able to sit while eating. You know, kind of in, like, the stereotypical eating disorder treatment lens, a provider who's not informed might look at that as, like, oh, they're trying to compensate.

Natalie Stine [00:21:14]:
They're trying to have more movement to compensate for what they're eating. But for a neurodivergent person, that could be stimming and, like, creating that positive experience of the happy feelings that come with stimming, basically, and, like, making eating more accessible, or even distracted eating, where that could be viewed as an avoidance and not wanting to, like, engage with food for, like, eating disorder reasons. But for, like, a neurodivergent person, eating distracted can, like, keep eating going by, like, pairing another task with it. Also, sometimes, eating can be challenging too. There's a lot of nourishment for self care because sometimes hunger and fullness cues can be so different for a neurodivergent person. And I think almost anybody can agree that eating when you're not hungry is kinda hard. And so, you know, having a distraction can be really helpful and it's not avoidance. It's not, you know, a disordered behavior.

Natalie Stine [00:22:10]:
It's actually, like, a supportive technique for that individual. And so that's where I see the importance of of understanding these so we don't cause more harm and make people feel bad about what they need to do with eating.

Leah Kern [00:22:24]:
Yeah. Yeah. I love the nuance you're bringing to this conversation. I think the intersection of intuitive eating and neurodivergence is being spoken about more, but it's not being spoken about enough. I also just wanna go back. You mentioned, you know, wanting to touch on, like, the intersectionality of the different identities you hold. So I wanna ask you, how would you say in your story the different intersections of your identities impacted your relationship with food and body?

Natalie Stine [00:22:50]:
So I am a white, cisgendered, queer, multiple, non divergent person in a small fat body. It's interesting because I have, like, both privileged and marginalized identities. And so, you know, I just think it's important to just name that because with neurodivergence and life in general, honestly, our identities, privilege and marginalized, just shape our story so much. And so I just think it's important to name those things because if somebody's listening to my story, they might have a very different, you know, reality. And, like, that's okay because, like, my story is shaped by all these different things that I just named. And even, like, in the work I do with clients, you know, I think it's important to name those things too with my clients because if we're talking about something and and have this general understanding of how I might have a drastically different experience because of these identities, it can help make a person feel more safe. And in general, like, I'm never trying to generalize at all because neurodivergence is so nuanced and multifaceted, and, like, these different types of traits and how they might show up for an individual. They kind of exist in, like, different intensities, different frequencies, and stuff like that.

Natalie Stine [00:24:08]:
And so I just always like to be very clear about, like, my identity so that way nobody feels, like, left out or unheard or or whatever. Like, they can't relate because, like, my story is gonna be different because of all these things. And I think the biggest part, like, kind of relating back to my story and where it fits in, outside of the white and cisgendered identities, everything else, it has taken me this long to feel okay with because my entire upbringing, it was not this environment that fostered those other identities. And I don't hold any, like, ill feelings towards, like, my family and anything like that because I've rec and, like, that's where I'm at with my healing, and I'm not saying that everybody needs to be at that place either. I'm at this place where I can recognize that they're pawns in this game of diet culture just too. And, like, they were just doing what they thought was the best. And so I don't hold anything against them, but it has gotten to how many years of thinking, like, I wasn't okay with those other identities. And now being able 30 some years later, like, sitting here and just being proud and confident of who I am as a person, it's just it's so cool.

Natalie Stine [00:25:16]:
And I think that's what, like, keeps me going too with this work is, like, I just keep holding out that hope that, like, someday my clients will get to that place too because it sucks to not feel okay with yourself, and it feels so great to finally feel okay with yourself.

Leah Kern [00:25:30]:
Yeah. You have the lived experience to know how life changing, like, true deep self acceptance really can be. And yeah, that's like such a strong motivation for wanting to do this work with others. I love your point about the importance of naming our identities. It's how our, like, worldview is shaped. And in this conversation and you sharing your story, I know you mentioned that was something important to you, so I'm glad that we could chat about that. To come back to the topic of neurodivergence, I think sort of the big question here is, can we use the current intuitive eating framework as it is now when working with neurodivergent clients? What are some of the most common challenges you see with the current framework?

Natalie Stine [00:26:10]:
So in my professional and personal opinion, because I am like, I would proudly identify myself as a neurodivergent intuitive eater. I would say that, yes, intuitive eating is accessible for a neurodivergent person. The message and underlying concepts of intuitive eating are wonderful. You know, when I think of what intuitive eating means to me, when it's using your body and its inner wisdom as this guide for health and, you know, how you wish to navigate eating, so, like, that is doable for people, you know, because intuitive eating is so not strict. Like, it can look so different for people. So as long as, like, we're not following the hunger and fullness diet version of intuitive eating, like, a 100%. Like, I believe it's possible. But the issue I have, and I think, like, most people in the field would agree with this, is just, like, the examples, the content, the activities in the book and workbook are just not conducive to supporting neurodivergent individuals because they're just very neurotypical in nature.

Natalie Stine [00:27:13]:
So it's not a lot that, like, a neurodivergent person can really relate to.

Leah Kern [00:27:19]:
I have this great list from you of some of the different thoughts you have on the challenges. So I think the first one we spoke on, the focus on mindful ness and eating undistracted, we spoke on, you said like sometimes stimming can be a helpful way for a neurodivergent person to get food in or to eat from a place of self care or to make eating more of a positive experience. The second reason you have listed is what rejecting diet culture means for the neurodivergent community, expanding on this by challenging the concept of normal eating and the neuronormative ideals around food, eating, and health. I'm so curious to hear you expand on this one.

Natalie Stine [00:27:56]:
And I just wanna give this, I guess, expression of gratitude and shout out quick too because I have learned so much from colleagues, peers, family members, and clients. Some of this stuff is very anecdotal in nature, but that is a testament to kinda how the research exists. We don't have a lot of neurodivergent led lived experience informed research. And so, yeah, I have to just, like, say that. Like, if you don't find anything in the research, that's probably why with these things.

Leah Kern [00:28:29]:
That's with my work and intuitive eating too is it's like freaking trailblazing because they're not talking about this. So we have to synthesize what we're seeing from working with clients. And I know you mentioned some of the things I spoke about on cannabis and Intuitive Eating. You had also seen with your clients who use cannabis. So it's like kind of putting something out there and then throwing it to the community and being like, are you seeing this too? Like, because, yeah, enough anecdotal evidence can start to lead way to pave the way for what are we gonna do research on. So it's like a really important beginning part of kind of trailblazing any new territory. Of course, like, in my undergrad, to become a dietitian, we didn't talk about neurodivergence. I don't even think that word was, like, being used yet, and we certainly didn't talk about cannabis.

Leah Kern [00:29:11]:
But, like, you and I are both seeing these are common things that the folks who we support are encountering. So we need to start figuring out how to make more tangible supporting people in this way.

Natalie Stine [00:29:24]:
Yeah. That is so true. And it can feel scary to be those trailblazers too, especially when you go to school and, like, you're just pounded into your head of, like, evidence based research evidence based research. And I'm like, well, what if the research is crap? Because some of the research with this is kind of crap where it's

Leah Kern [00:29:42]:
like Totally.

Natalie Stine [00:29:43]:
So I took a really fantastic course through Ardis for Neurodiversity. They're a fantastic resource. Naureen Bhanani is great. And, like, some of the studies we were looking over, it was like, when you break it down with their conclusions, it was like, autistic people eat like autistic people. And I'm like, okay. Like, what do we do with the information? Right. It's all these people are eating wrong. Let's make them eat right in this way.

Natalie Stine [00:30:09]:
And it's like, what's wrong about it?

Leah Kern [00:30:11]:
The research can be so fraught, and we know that from, like, all the issues with weight centric research and how they're, like, asserting correlation equals causation and all these pieces. I have this great professor or I had I don't have professors anymore, but she was my professor in undergrad who has been on the podcast, Lizzie Pope. She came on once. She'll she'll be on again. I don't know by the time this comes out if her second episode will be out already. But, anyway, she is a professor. She's a PhD. PhD.

Leah Kern [00:30:36]:
She is very into research, but something she said that honestly gave me so much, like, permission when she came on the podcast, She said this beautiful line. She said, research is just one way of knowing. And if we just, like, white knuckle grip re research and, like, completely ignore, like, people's stories and lived experiences, our own lived experiences, like, how did it feel to be in diet culture? Like, did that feel, like, good in your body? Like, research aside, like, your own lived experience is valuable too, and I think that really places power back in the individual versus, like, everything having to be like, well, show me the facts. And there's value in both. But I just love that Lizzie as, like, a PhD, someone who's super, you know, well studied and researched said that. Like, it gave me such permission.

Natalie Stine [00:31:20]:
I love that. And it's so true too because another thought that popped into my brain is how absolutely privileged it is to be able to do research, to be able to go to school, to then get your PhD or whatever and, like, go on that research track. The people that are being affected the most don't have access to that. And so how else are we going to hear what to do with them and learn from them if, like, that's not

Leah Kern [00:31:48]:
And, like, a form of research is observation of, like, epidemiological group, like, looking at what's happening and starting to kind of observe that way. Of course, like, the strongest form of research is random controlled trials, but some populations and circumstances just don't lend themselves to that kind of research. So, yeah, I love that whole tangent. And so, like, yeah, with all that being said, coming back to this piece on challenging the concept of normal eating for the normative ideals around food and health.

Natalie Stine [00:32:17]:
Yeah. So I am gonna, like, just take it back to the research part to explain this. And this is something that I learned through that course with artists for neurodiversity. It was so eye opening. And so it's, like, one of the things that you love sharing, but also hate sharing at the same time. So the idea of a normal human being has been defined only in, like, the first half of the twentyth century. And this was also a century of psychologists living under the shadow of eugenics. And so, like, normal equating to this vision of perfect bodies in all facets, health, beauty, functionality.

Natalie Stine [00:32:57]:
And so when we say, like, normal, it just naturally creates a deviant. And, you know, I think that it's important to start exploring the idea of challenging what we think might be normal, and if that's true or necessary to rigidly recommend. You know? Is it possible that this could exist another way, you know, with, like, 3 meals and 1 to 3 snacks, and that being the way that eating should work for a person? Mindfulness and sitting down as a family to eat meals, eating the rainbow, even like, you know, the My Plates and things like that. Where is this information coming from, and who's deciding why this has to be that way? I guess I question it because, you know, if our research has been so ingrained with shadows of, like, normalcy, I just can't imagine that there aren't other ways of eating that wouldn't be just as beneficial. And so it's just, you know, taking a step back as a person and a provider and just, like, kind of, like, challenging it and critically thinking, like, is this necessary? Why would it be necessary? Could this exist another way for a client? And just kind of allowing that to kind of flow to wherever it needs to be.

Leah Kern [00:34:13]:
Yeah. Something that's coming up for me is my clients, some of them will do activities in the intuitive eating workbook, and some of them will feel like there's this one activity that's like a mindful eating practice, and some of them will start to feel or maybe it's like a checklist of a chart where, like, you check off, like, the behaviors you have or you don't have. And one of them is, like, I eat distracted or whatever. And some of my clients will be like, oh my god. I feel guilty. Like, I do do that. And I'm like, I do that. Like, I will purposely put on, like, a fun podcast or movie or show because, like, I want connection while eating, and I'm often eating alone.

Leah Kern [00:34:44]:
And it can cause shame when it's like, okay. How does that feel for you? Does it feel okay? Like, maybe it doesn't feel great. I always give this distinction with clients to be watching the news or something really stressful while eating because it's like putting you into fight or flight. But maybe something light and funny or reading a book you love or something feels good. So, like, we don't need to be like, we're getting distracted. This is bad. Like, we can check-in with ourselves and say, like, does it feel bad for you? Does it feel okay?

Natalie Stine [00:35:09]:
Yeah. And I think that's why intuitive eating is so powerful for even the neurodivergent community with all those challenges of the framework that needs some tweaking. I think it's still great because with intuitive eating, we're bringing it back to the client and bringing it back to the body and, like, checking in on what works. So it just creates this opportunity for anything and everything to be possible.

Leah Kern [00:35:31]:
Yeah. Absolutely. And it's always about how does it feel for you? Not what does the rule say, not what this, like, protocol is calling for, but how does it land in your body?

Natalie Stine [00:35:40]:
Yeah. Me, like, professionally, I don't care what people do with their lives. I would hate if somebody comes into my life and tells me what to do. So if you're here telling me that, like, grazing during the day helps and you feel better than eating 3 meals and 1 to 2 snacks, you know, I might have some follow-up questions on digestive symptoms and stuff like that just to, like, double check. But, like, who am I to question what works for you?

Leah Kern [00:36:02]:
Yeah. This also makes me think about how many different cultures there are in the world with different norms about what kinds of foods are eaten at different times of day. Like, in America, it's very much like we have certain ideas about what are breakfast foods, what are lunch foods, what are dinner foods. And it's really, like, quite arbitrary. Like, your body doesn't give a shit. It's just, like, fuel going in. And other cultures' different norms of, like, they have much more meat and much less vegetables or much more vegetables with less meat. Like, there's so many different ways of eating in the world.

Leah Kern [00:36:29]:
Like you said, how can there just be, like, one right or, quote, unquote, normal way?

Natalie Stine [00:36:33]:
Yeah. And then 2, diet culture, it affects neurodivergent people in similar ways as, like, neurotypical people, but then there's this other element of, like, sensory preferences and honoring that. I'm just gonna share, like, what happened to me and my experience. So growing up and, like, still to this day, like, I've never really been an animal meat based protein person. Like, texturally, it's I could do without it. And I remember growing up in high school and when I got into college, I was like, I'm gonna try to eat vegetarian because I love carbs, love beans, love all these things. And then I would try, and I wouldn't see weight loss happening. And so I'd be like, this isn't the way for me.

Natalie Stine [00:37:20]:
I guess my body doesn't like this, because it's not responding in this weight loss way that I was expecting. And so I wouldn't eat what felt best for me and my satisfaction and my sensory profile. And I would just force myself to eat, like, chicken and pork chops and all this stuff that I really didn't like for the sake of weight loss and controlling my body. It's just been so freeing to be able to eat all the yummy, like, vegetarian dishes now. I still eat meat occasionally. It's just not my cup of tea is for the most part.

Leah Kern [00:37:53]:
Mhmm. To kind of make it tangible for someone listening, how can, like, the different sensory pieces and satisfaction look different for someone who's neurodivergent?

Natalie Stine [00:38:05]:
Yeah. So there's, like, 2 different outlets. And, also, like, all of these things I'm talking about, these are not an exhaustive list of traits and how they show up in a person. Just examples of what I've seen. So, you know, like, internal sensory input and, like, those sensory preferences and sensory needs. So, you know, honoring what are the textures, the smells, the tastes that you either like or don't like, and just, like, letting that be for yourself and letting that be okay. Also, with some of my ADHD clients, I mean, this can exist in other forms of neurodivergency where they're a trait can be, like, a really higher need for novelty. And so I've seen, like, sensory needs and preferences impacting, like, a satisfaction with meals where, like, the typical three component type of meal, like a protein, a starch, and a veggie or fruit, For somebody who has a higher need of novelty, they might need more components.

Natalie Stine [00:39:14]:
And so what I've seen with some of my clients and and myself too is we are eating and we get to this place of the food not tasting good anymore. And if we go off of the, like, neurotypical rhetoric of when eating isn't as fun, enjoyable, or tasty, that is a mental fullness cue. If we just operate off that alone sometimes, we can accidentally not get to fullness and that pure satisfaction. Because in a neurodivergent mind, sometimes, that's not fullness, and that is I am now bored and this isn't fun. Because I have 3 components, I'm moving around as opposed to, like, maybe 5 different things that are keeping it exciting on the plate. And I've, like, seen clients and myself too, will get hungry earlier because we think we've met that fullness, but there wasn't enough novelty to keep us wanting to keep eating and actually get to that fullness.

Leah Kern [00:40:11]:
That is so fascinating, and that makes so much sense to me. I'm like, I think I sometimes experience that. I I love components. And, yeah, like, I never had that language for it. But, yeah, the more components can be more interesting. And then there are people on the other end of the spectrum where they're like, that's overwhelming. I want simple. So I think it just speaks to, like, we keep saying how eating could look so many different ways.

Natalie Stine [00:40:33]:
Yeah. That's such a good point because, like, our sensory input, it exists on so many different levels. Our auditory input, our visual input, our, you know, textile input. And so, like, for somebody who has a sensitive visual input, having a bunch of different, things on the plate could be, like, visually overstimulating, and that's where some of that some of the problems with, like, the the diet culture type of eat the rainbow, make your plate as colorful as it possibly can be, it's really challenging for a neurodivergent client because it's like, I want my plate to be all brown or all this color. Like, that feels good. And then there's this, like, idea of, like, well, that can't be nutritious. But it's like, well, who says, like, who says if we have a plate all the same color that we can't get all of our macro and micronutrient needs met still?

Leah Kern [00:41:23]:
Totally. I could totally think of an all beige plate that has, like, chicken that's, like, white, potatoes, maybe I don't know. I'm thinking of,

Natalie Stine [00:41:30]:
like cauliflower or something.

Leah Kern [00:41:32]:
Yeah. Or corn. Currently with my partner and his parents, I'm thinking too about how, like, when we sit down to eat dinner, like, everyone likes different things. So sometimes I'll be like, do you want a plate or a bowl? I'm like, I wanna mix all this shit up. Like, I want if I'm having, like, salad and pasta and, like, applesauce or something, like, I want it all mixed up. I want a bite of all of it in one. My partner and his dad are very, like if it's, like, a saucy pasta, they want a separate plate for salad because they don't want, like, the sauce up in their salad. And then it's funny.

Leah Kern [00:41:59]:
Just people are different. Like and and even, like, those are kind of differences that we accept of, like, some people want a separate plate for salad, some people don't. And, like, we're like, oh, yeah. Normal. But, like, how is that really so different than people who have more, I guess, what, like, we might conventionally consider, like, extreme sensory preferences. It really isn't that different.

Natalie Stine [00:42:20]:
And it doesn't matter. When I worked at the treatment center, there's, like, clients who, like, they would prefer to have a smaller spoon as opposed to a bigger spoon. I remember providers being like, no, you can't. And I mean, I was a a victim of that too because I was just following the rules of the treatment center. And now knowing all I know, it's like, why the heck did it matter? Like, what the heck does it matter what type of spoon or bowl or plate a person is using? Because that's where it starts crossing the territory of, like, this is not about health anymore. This is about controlling the way that somebody exists and operates in the world. Which ends

Leah Kern [00:42:56]:
up having the diet culture energy of, like, white supremacy and patriarchy of, like, I'll tell you what spoon to use. Like, yeah. That's so interesting. My brain is turning in so many ways. I things I haven't previously thought about.

Natalie Stine [00:43:08]:
This is how my brain feels all the time.

Leah Kern [00:43:11]:
I also wanna touch on the piece of, like, almost body image or body respect that is the dissatisfaction over bodily sensations that can happen because of sensory challenges for someone who's neurodivergent and how this can impact body image.

Natalie Stine [00:43:27]:
Yeah. And then, if it's okay with you, I wanted to touch on a couple other ways that this respect body, like, shows up differently for neurodivergence too, but I'll start with that

Leah Kern [00:43:36]:
one. Of course.

Natalie Stine [00:43:37]:
So, yeah, recently, I have had some clients where, you know, the idea of, like, their weight increasing or having to restore weight in that intentional way is, like, really challenging because, as we know, when we are restricted and when we have lost weight, a common side effect is suppression of lots of bodily functions, the different systems in our body, our cognitive ability, and, you know, that extends to sensory input too. And so in a person with sensory processing differences, you know, having that weight loss and that suppression effect can be relieving to not have that negative sensory input that they don't know how to manage yet anymore, and then having to make that choice for themselves of restoring weight or allowing my body to gain weight for these health reasons, and then having to deal with this negative sensory input that I'm experiencing or continuing to exist in this maybe smaller body than what it prefers to get the benefit of not having to deal with that sensory input.

Leah Kern [00:44:47]:
Okay. I'm gonna say it back to you to make sure I'm understanding. So when we a person restricts, it shuts off certain body functions. I'm thinking, like, a super concrete example of, like, someone who loses their period from restriction in the body can start to say, okay. This is nonessential. We need to focus on survival. We're shutting down menstruation. And so then it sounds like what you're sharing is, like, for someone who has, like, differences in sensory processing, not having a period and all the associated symptoms, for example, is one system that could kind of shut down, could be relieving.

Natalie Stine [00:45:19]:
Their nervous system.

Leah Kern [00:45:20]:
Yeah. Could be relieving for them so that that could, like, interfere with motivation for recovery or healing.

Natalie Stine [00:45:27]:
Yeah. Or just create this, like, extra barrier. And, like, if people aren't informed about that, they might look at a client and it's like, oh, they just don't wanna they're just afraid to gain weight. They don't wanna gain weight.

Leah Kern [00:45:41]:
You were sharing how when restriction happens, it could lead to the body kind of shutting down, and it so that it's going into survival mode. And, like, one example that came to mind for me is a person losing their period. What would be another example of, like, a manifestation of the body shutting down?

Natalie Stine [00:45:59]:
Yeah. That could be, like I said, like, your cognitive system, like, that flexibility, like, your brain being able to have that mental flexibility and less rigidity with thinking. I've seen this happen too with people's digestive systems where they might have flow gastric motility and things taking longer to digest. And, you know, with that could come, like, gas and bloating and and stuff like that, which also for that too, those are negative sensory inputs as well, like, experiencing that. But for, like, the sensory aspect, so far what I've seen is just having kinda like that numbness and that suppression of the sensory input as a side effect of restriction and not just feeling really good for those individuals, and they don't want to not have that anymore.

Leah Kern [00:46:48]:
This is so interesting. I've really never thought about that, and it makes a ton of sense. I could see how it would create an additional hurdle, you know, move towards weight restoring or recovery in general.

Natalie Stine [00:46:59]:
Yeah. And the and the tricky part about this too is for sensory processing, like, there's a lot of resources for kids. My son, he has sensory processing challenges, and, like, he has a wonderful OT support and learning all these different tools, and it's been so great. And those types of supports are less frequent for adults. And I think some of that might have to do I'm not a 100% sure. This is just kind of my own theory of, like, one of these stereotypes with neurodivergency that's existed for quite some time. It's like, they'll grow out of it. It's like, well, guess what? We don't.

Natalie Stine [00:47:35]:
Like, this is, like, a difference in our brain and nervous system. Like, nothing's gonna change. And so I think, like, the adults have just kinda gotten forgotten, it feels like.

Leah Kern [00:47:45]:
Yeah. It's it sounds like such a lack of support for folks, especially folks who don't even come to learn about these identities until later in life. It's like, then you never even have a chance at getting support and tools without being like dismissive of like, Oh, you'll just grow out of

Natalie Stine [00:48:03]:
it. Yeah.

Leah Kern [00:48:04]:
Is there anything else you wanted to add on the piece about body respect and how that can can show up?

Natalie Stine [00:48:10]:
Oh, yes. Yes. So the other two, like, common areas that I've seen this show up is autistic individuals and ADHDers are up to 7 times, I think, is what the number is more likely than neurotypical people to identify as transgender or gender nonbinary. And so, you know, for providers, you know, having that awareness of, like, body aesthetics very much go beyond the worries of beauty standards and crossing into territory of gender dysphoria and also, like, sometimes safety too, and how, like, scary and traumatic it can be. And this is just from, like, what my clients have told me since, like, I am cisgendered and do not understand that lived experience, it can feel really scary to live in the world right now as a transgender or gender nonconforming individual. And so there's that element of, like, safety and the threat of my my life and safety. And so if we don't understand those elements, then these people are not gonna be supported in the way that they truly deserve and need to be supported if we're just existing in this, like, you don't like what you love rhetoric.

Leah Kern [00:49:18]:
Right. Or you don't like you think you don't mean up to beauty ideals. It's like there's so many other reasons that we could have distressful body image.

Natalie Stine [00:49:25]:
Yeah. And then the other part that I see and it's not that, like, the the information that we currently have or use for neurotypical people is incorrect with weight gain, but it just expands more for a neurodivergent individuals. So a common neurodivergent trait is having a hard time with change and transition, which like most people do. But for a neurodivergent individual, that can be magnified as far as, like, overwhelming with how that could feel and, like, liking predictability and things like that. So when we think about weight gain, it's not only a body change, but now it's a closed change, it's a how my body feels change. You know, when we go back to, like, sensory input, the the proprioceptive awareness of how our body is existing. And, like, for somebody, if they gain weight and, like, maybe their arms are touching a part of their body that never touched before, and that doesn't feel good from that sensory processing element, you know, how people perceive you and how people treat you. So, like, when you start to name all the lists of, like, what's going to change with the change in body, it goes from one thing to, like, about 5 things or maybe more for a person.

Natalie Stine [00:50:42]:
And so that can feel very overwhelming for a person. And there are, like, some more reasons to this. Well, this is just one that I've just seen more often, more commonly. But there's another really great podcast called Live Label Free, and the host, Livia, she is autistic and she has a whole episode dedicated. And so diving into reasons why autistic individuals fear weight gain, because there's, like, whole bunch other ones too.

Leah Kern [00:51:11]:
That's interesting. Okay. That's good to know. I will search for that, and, potentially, we can link to it in the show notes If folks are interested in learning more, that sounds like she does a big deep dive.

Natalie Stine [00:51:21]:
Oh, yeah. I mean, a lot of her episodes are deep dives. So I'm, like, really, like, important and crucial things to understand about specifically autistic individuals is what she focuses on on her podcast.

Leah Kern [00:51:33]:
Yeah. That sounds sounds like a much needed area to cover. I'll definitely look into it. So going back to kind of our big list here of the big question, can we use the intuitive eating framework as it is now with neurodivergent clients, which you said like, absolutely, but like also here are some of the most common challenges you see with the framework. And we spoke about the distracted eating, the idea of trying to correct certain behaviors that really aren't a problem, trying to make like be normal. We've talked about body respect. Is there any other pieces that you feel are important to touch on here?

Natalie Stine [00:52:09]:
Yeah. Movement. There's a lot of different things that could be touched on with movement, but I think the biggest one to understand is that, like, energy needs for a neurodivergent individual might be higher. And it's, you know, kinda going beyond that, like, basal metabolic rate, physical activity factor. We gotta account for hyperactivity traits. We have to account for fidgeting. We have to account for dimming activities that can, you know, use energy, and so we might grossly underestimate even more than what the Mifflin St. Sure already under estimates energy needs for a person.

Natalie Stine [00:52:51]:
And so just understanding that, I think, is important. And for, like, individuals working through this too. Like, if you're eating something that, you know, looks to be like a typical amount of food and you're still feeling not satisfied, you know, that's okay for anybody. And, like, you just truly might need more because of all these different traits that I just rattled off. And, like, that's okay. And, like, understanding why that's happening, I think, can be helpful and powerful for some people.

Leah Kern [00:53:21]:
Mhmm. Yeah. Thank you for adding that piece in. I love how you kind of have, like, sifted through the intuitive eating principles and pulled out the ones that you feel have specific, like, implications as it relates to the intersection of neurodivergence and intuitive eating. So, like, the principle about movement, the principle about respect your body.

Natalie Stine [00:53:40]:
I have notes for every principle, Leah. So any you wanna hear more about, just my

Leah Kern [00:53:46]:
Yeah. Well, that's awesome. And that's you, like, really trailblazing and creating, trying to make tangible just what you're seeing.

Natalie Stine [00:53:53]:
Yeah. And I think, if it's okay to kinda jump into another one, another really important one. Well, I guess there's 2 really important ones. The hunger and fullness aspect of intuitive eating, neurodivergent individuals might have drastically reduced interoception. And so, you know, this doesn't only show up with hunger cues and missing them or not experiencing the normal types of hunger cues. But we can also see this in neurodivergent clients who struggle with loss of control eating. That primal hunger might kick in because of the restriction, and we all know how hard it can be to eat intuitively when we're swinging over from that primal hunger. And then if we couple that with that decreased interoception, we might not be able to recognize those fullness cues until they're too far gone.

Natalie Stine [00:54:45]:
And so, like, accidental binges and not being able to know when to stop because of interoception differences is a very common thing that happens for people. And so I think, like, just people and clinicians understanding that, so, like, they know how to talk about that with clients, come up with different plans instead of, like, the traditional way of just be mindful and listen for the stopping point. Like, there might not be a stopping point that shows up if somebody doesn't have that signal, and, like, how else can we navigate those scenarios then? What do we do about it? So, yeah, I think that's the other one that I think is important to understand with hunger and fullness. Mhmm.

Leah Kern [00:55:26]:
Yeah. I'm thinking about a client who I worked with who actually had, like, the opposite. I don't know if she would identify as as neurodivergent in this way, but I guess it is a difference in sensory processing. She had, like, visceral hypersensitivity where, like, her interoception was really, really, really strong, and it was actually disturbing for her because she said, like, when she's ovulating, like, she could, like, really feel the moment that, like, the egg is dropping. And so for her, the task of being asked to intentionally tune in was also difficult because she's like, I I already hear so much, and it's so overwhelming, and I don't wanna hear everything going on inside. So, again, with that spectrum of, like, it can be difficult on both extremes.

Natalie Stine [00:56:05]:
Absolutely. Yeah. And I've had clients like that before, same thing. And that's where, you know, I kinda go back to what I was saying. Like, if grazing works, then great. Because, like, fullness and the feeling of fullness, and if that's what's going on and that is magnified and it feels so incredibly uncomfortable and distressing to even sit in comfortable fullness, if that means that you're eating a little bit under to kind of, like, skate past that negative experience, as long as you are able to like, all I care about is my clients being able to still show up for their body when it might

Leah Kern [00:56:37]:
get hungry earlier. Like, do you have consistent access to food throughout the day, or are you locked up in meetings or school? Like, is it possible to eat again when you get hungry?

Natalie Stine [00:56:47]:
Yeah. Like, if it's possible to eat again when you're hungry and you wanna avoid that negative sensory experience, like, I really don't care. That's okay.

Leah Kern [00:56:55]:
Right. Totally. Again, there's so many ways to eat. There's so many ways to do this.

Natalie Stine [00:56:59]:
Yeah. But that was a really good point to bring up because, yeah, it can just exist on, like, totally opposite sides of it.

Leah Kern [00:57:06]:
Yeah. Are there any other principles that you wanna connect back to the differences with neurodivergence? Yeah.

Natalie Stine [00:57:14]:
Yeah. I think the last one is, like, coping with emotions. So neurodivergent individuals have, like, a higher potential to experience alexithymia, which for those who might not be aware, but that is just, like, significant challenges in recognizing, expressing, and describing the emotions. And so just like some of the traditional ways of, like, talking about emotional eating and coping with your emotion of, like, well, what emotion was coming up? How are you feeling? A neurodivergent person might not be able to describe those things. And so, like, in order to then determine what you do with that, you kinda need that starting point. And, like, I am not an expert in this at all because, you know, I'm not a therapist or anything. But to my understanding, like, approaches to alexithymia are still, like, fairly new, and there's not a lot out there. But what I've been doing so far in, like, my work with clients is trying to just identify other potential cues for commonly felt emotions.

Natalie Stine [00:58:15]:
So if we are anxious, like, for me, like, if I'm anxious, I'll just start pacing randomly. And so, like, these, like, behavioral cues that might show up or, like, sensations too. So some people might feel, like, a physical hotness in their body when they're feeling insecure. And, like, that could be, like, a clue if you're not sure yet, like, what insecurity looks like or feels like for you or even, like, loneliness and how that can feel like this, like, very heavy, full body feeling. And so I was just starting to get, like, more curious about, like, leading behavior and or, like, little sensations that might lead to certain more commonly known emotion.

Leah Kern [00:58:54]:
Yeah. Another genius point about another principle of intuitive eating and how it can look different. Do you ever use the feelings wheel?

Natalie Stine [00:59:02]:
Yes and no. So Lindsay Bram is, I think, her name. She's made, like, feelings wheels that are behaviors and sensations, and so I'll use those modified feelings wheels a lot of the times with my neurodivergent

Leah Kern [00:59:17]:
client. Because I feel like sometimes even just, like, seeing the options, like, if someone even without neurodiversity, someone being like, how do you feel? It's like, what are the choices? I don't know. Like, we can just, like, forget all the emotions that exist. So seeing them all, like, laid out can be like, oh, a little menu of, like, oh, yeah. That's an emotion. Yeah.

Natalie Stine [00:59:34]:
Oh, yeah. No. Absolutely. I mean, gosh. We live in this hustle culture where we're not connected to our body a lot at the time. So, like, somebody asks you how you feel and it just, like, throws you off. It's like, woah. You care? Okay.

Natalie Stine [00:59:45]:
Wait. Let me, like, catch up and figure out how I feel.

Leah Kern [00:59:48]:
Exactly. Yeah. Well, I think you've given us so many concrete ways that the intersection of being neurodivergent and trying to practice intuitive eating can show up and, and specifically like unique kind of issues with different principles of intuitive eating, or more like how you would modify them and speak about them differently in the context of working with a client with neurodivergent. So thank you for going through all of that. I have a few wrap up questions that I ask everyone. My first is what is your biggest diet culture pet peeve right now?

Natalie Stine [01:00:23]:
My biggest diet culture pet peeve is seeing, like, these clean eating or naturopathic providers dogging on processed foods and things like that. But then on the flip side, they're like, but here's all my supplements and my specialty fortified vitamins and all of that. It's like, okay. Well, you just, like, said you hated the same thing that you're selling.

Leah Kern [01:00:48]:
Right. That's process 2. Yeah. That is so annoying. And that also just made me think about in the context of our conversation, like, how processed foods are really consistent, whereas, like, fruits and vegetables and stuff, like, a blueberry might be super sweet and firm and at one time, and then the next time might be, like, super mushy and, like, watery. And how for someone who likes consistency, that could lead to, like, aversions with fresh produce, whereas processed foods can be really supportive and, like, they're consistent.

Natalie Stine [01:01:16]:
Yeah. And just like all the other things we're talking about, like, it can happen the opposite too because, like, that is what I thought with my son. And, like, he will eat literally every different fruit on this planet, but then the things that are, like, chicken nuggets and, like, noodles and stuff. He's getting better at noodles. The consistency, he's like, I want no parts of that. But he'll, like, take all the different flavors and textures of fruit. I'm like, you're completely making this thought not work, but it's okay because he's different.

Leah Kern [01:01:45]:
Yeah. He's very adventurous, but then doesn't want the, like, consistent stuff yet.

Natalie Stine [01:01:49]:
But no. For some other people, that can be really helpful to have the consistency. And then that kinda goes into, like, people feeling bad about themselves too, like eating chicken nuggets and eating like a kid and and stuff like that. It's yeah.

Leah Kern [01:02:00]:
Yeah. Adequacy is the most important thing. Right? It's like getting fuel in beyond the content of what it is. The next question I like to ask everyone is, what does intuition mean to you, and how do you experience it?

Natalie Stine [01:02:13]:
Yeah. So intuition for me means this inner wisdom of my body. And I remember listening to one of your episodes, and you were describing, like, this little voice. And, like, sometimes it exists as a little voice, And then other times, it truly does exist as this gut feeling where I just feel this sensation in my stomach gut area. And so it's Yeah. It's very physical with how intuition shows up for me, but I think it's all rooted in just like your body's inner wisdom and knowing.

Leah Kern [01:02:49]:
Yeah. I love that. I love hearing people's answer to that question every time. Natalie, is there anything we missed or anything else on your heart that you're feeling called to share?

Natalie Stine [01:02:58]:
I'm just so geeked about this topic and type of, like, support and work because I just feel like it's gonna be so cool watching my son grow and develop while getting all of these, like, amazing supports put in place and, like, a community and family that's gonna affirm his differences and just, like, how cool to see how everything's gonna pan out when the work's being done from this place of building up as opposed to deconstruction. And then also, how freaking cool we're gonna have these, like, real life examples and beacons of hope walking through a world that we can, like, look to for ourselves as, like, we

Leah Kern [01:03:47]:
comes through so clearly. And if someone wants to geek out with you or learn more about your work or just connect with you, where can they connect with you?

Natalie Stine [01:03:57]:
Yeah. So they can find me on my Instagram. It's natalie stein nutrition. And, yeah, if anybody's really interested to connect me or, like, anybody needing support, like, I am accepting new clients. So, like, reach out to me on Instagram for more information on that. And even if I don't have availability, you know, just little professional plug if it's okay. Like, I work with this amazing group of experienced RDs with the group practice. I love this practice because they really do believe in informed care for everyone, like, no matter their history, goals, gender, life experiences, and circumstances.

Natalie Stine [01:04:31]:
So, like, even if it's not me, I know you'll be in good hands with other people. So, like, we're just here to support whoever needs it.

Leah Kern [01:04:38]:
Thank you, Natalie. Yes. And I will link to your Instagram in the show notes as well so people can easily find you.

Natalie Stine [01:04:43]:
Thank you, Leah.

Leah Kern [01:04:49]:
Thanks so much for tuning in to this week's episode of Shoulders Down. If you enjoyed the episode, if it inspired you, or if you learned something, consider sharing it with someone to help spread the anti diet message. A special thanks to Softer Sounds for producing the podcast and making these conversations sound as beautiful as they feel. For more intuitive eating and body image support, visit leokeernrd. Com, and check out the blog and our free resources. To stay in tune with me and what's happening in my business and personal life, subscribe to my newsletter at leokernrd.com / newsletter. Thanks for listening. Talk to you soon.