Leah Kern [00:00:08]:
Welcome to shoulders down, a podcast for truth seekers who want to heal their relationships with food and body. I'm your host, Leah Kern, and I'm an anti diet dietitian, certified intuitive eating counselor, and fellow truth seeker with personal experience navigating disordered eating. In this podcast, you'll learn to harness your body's innate wisdom to govern not just how you eat, but also how you live. It's my mission to help you heal your with food and body, so you can live your most aligned and fulfilling life. Welcome, and I'm so glad that you're here. Hello, and welcome back to another episode of shoulders down. Today, we have our first returning guest who is one of my professors from my undergrad education to become a dietitian at the University of Vermont. Her name is Lizzy Pope.

Leah Kern [00:01:00]:
She's incredible. She had an episode on shoulders down maybe, like, 2 years ago at this point, where we talked about her experience being a nutrition professor, talking about the weight neutral approach to health care, intuitive eating, anti diet, and how the students receive that. We talk about her story and her experience going from being more weight normative to transitioning into weight neutral. And it's one of our most downloaded episodes. So I will link that in the show notes. Definitely check it out. Today, we're focusing on some recent research that Lizzy did with an honors college student at the University of Vermont, where they looked at the messaging, the nutrition messaging that predominates on TikTok, the most popular themes in the nutrition and health related messaging on TikTok. And what they found, which is unfortunately sort of not surprising, is that weight normative messaging predominates TikTok.

Leah Kern [00:01:59]:
And if you're like, wait, what does weight normative mean? Weight normative is essentially diet culture. Right? It's the the sort of societally accepted, more like widely accepted idea that weight equals health, that more deeply, unfortunately, that your weight impacts your moral value, which, of course, I don't agree with and is so much of why I'm so passionate about this work because your weight is not a determinant of your health. It's not a determinant of your moral value as a person, and that's the weight normative approach. Whereas the weight neutral approach is this approach that we talk about here on shoulders down where health at every size, anti diet, this idea that is supported by the evidence that our weight doesn't lead to our health outcomes. It's not a determinant of our health outcomes. There are many other things that determine our health outcomes, but weight is not one of them. So the weight normative approach really aligns with the work that I do with clients. So that's important sort of definitions to know upfront.

Leah Kern [00:02:58]:
In this episode, Lizzy talks about how the rise of Ozempic has impacted conversations in her courses. She kinda just gives us a little update. She also talks about how the idea for this research came about and her findings from the research. And she also talks about 3 main themes that were present in the research. So I'll I'll kinda give you that spoiler upfront. She talks about how in the research, they found 3 themes, the glorification of weight loss, the positioning of food to achieve health and thinness, and the lack of expert voices providing nutrition information. Those were the three themes that they found when coding and analyzing over a 1,000 popular videos on TikTok from popular nutrition hashtags. So Lizzy will get much more into into the weeds and share with you much more specific details about this really interesting research in today's episode.

Leah Kern [00:03:54]:
I am first going to introduce her, share her bio with you, and then we will dive right in. Lizzy Pope is an associate professor and director of the undergraduate dietetics program at the University of Vermont. Lizzy is also a certified intuitive eating counselor. Her research interests center on the scholarship of teaching and learning weight inclusive nutrition and decision making around health behaviors. She teaches several courses at UVM, including the introductory nutrition course and a course on weight inclusive nutrition. She received a BA in psychology from Dartmouth College, a master's, and her registered dietitian credential from Columbia University, and her PhD in 2013 from UVM. Lizzy enjoys moving her body in a variety of ways, training her puppy carbo, and ardently watching a variety of TV shows. Welcome back to the podcast, Lizzy.

Leah Kern [00:04:40]:
You're our first repeat guest.

Lizzie Pope [00:04:42]:
Wow. Thank you for having me, Leah. That's a major honor. I did not know that.

Leah Kern [00:04:45]:
I was just realizing it in this moment. I also reference, like, your episode all the time. One thing you said from that first episode that I always think about is or that I really took from it is like this idea that research isn't everything. Like, yes, it's it's important. And it's actually a lot of what we're gonna talk about today, but it's also looking at lived experiences. You know, there's, like, other ways of knowing. That's the way you phrased it, and I love that so much.

Lizzie Pope [00:05:10]:
Multiple ways of knowing. I think that's so important, especially when we talk about intuitive eating or as a way of approaching eating. It's like you have to value your own intuition around what's gonna work for you. So I still believe that.

Leah Kern [00:05:22]:
I love it. I thought it'd be fun to start with, like, any updates. So we're not gonna go through your story. Again, I'll link in the show notes so people can can kinda get more background on you from that first episode. But last we spoke on the podcast, you shared about the process of transitioning the dietetic curriculum at UVM to be fully weight neutral. And I wanna check-in, like, how's that going and any new, like, trends you're noticing amongst the students. I think you said when I saw you in the fall in Vermont that you had been getting more pushback than you initially had maybe from students.

Lizzie Pope [00:05:57]:
I mean, we continue along the path at UBM of making our dietetics programs weight inclusive, weight neutral. And I can't remember if we had hired another faculty member when I talked to you last, but we've hired another dietetics faculty member, and we were able to hire someone, like, right out front who was weight inclusive and that was, like, a stated value that we had in the job ad. And so we have that person on board now. She might have been coming on board when I last talked to you. And so that's been great because that's really helped to make so many more of our classes that the dietetics students take from a weight inclusive perspective, which is huge. I think the students honestly, I think they're still really excited to learn a new perspective. I just think that there's tough questions that they have because that they've been socialized and educated in a weight normative paradigm. And so they have tough questions that you have to address head on if you want to help them to change or to see a new perspective.

Lizzie Pope [00:06:56]:
So a lot of them ask questions like, well, okay. Well, there's got to be a certain weight where it's just no longer okay. Things like that or like a cutoff. They're looking for a cutoff or or things like deconstructing the relationship between weight and health can be really difficult for them, especially when, like, places like Netflix have documentaries coming out every other week, it feels like, that just reinforce some of these ideas. And they watch those because they're, like, just interested. I mean, I would've done the same when I was their age. And so I think what we've tried to do is we just try to be really upfront and we're like, yeah. Let's talk about it.

Lizzie Pope [00:07:32]:
Like, let's talk about the questions you have and But generally, I I feel like the students are still really interested in a different perspective and sometimes very relieved. And sometimes, like, they reject it, and that's okay too.

Leah Kern [00:07:46]:
Yeah. Yeah. Has the rise of Ozempic and those kind of drugs impacted the conversation in your classes?

Lizzie Pope [00:07:54]:
It's impacted the conversation, I would say, that I have more with colleagues than the conversation I'm having with students. I think it is impacting a conversation in our clinical class. I don't teach that class, so it's less for me. But certainly, students are aware of it and we have to have these conversations. I mean, they kind of change the whole in certain ways, they change the discussion quite a bit and and other ways, they don't. So I think, again, just being upfront and talking about, like, the pros and cons and like Reagan Chastain has done a lot of good work that I've been drawing from when I try to deconstruct the drug conversation. But students are definitely curious.

Leah Kern [00:08:33]:
Absolutely. Thanks for that, like, temperature check on what's going on at UVM amongst the students. You did research on the impact of TikTok on people's, like, views about weight and health. And when did this get published? When was it?

Lizzie Pope [00:08:48]:
It was published, I believe, in 2022, fall of 2022.

Leah Kern [00:08:52]:
We'll link to the original, like, the research in in the show notes. I'm curious how did the idea for this research come about?

Lizzie Pope [00:08:59]:
So the research was a collaboration between myself and then an honors college student who I was working with, Marissa, and she and I started working together in the OG pandemic. So it was at a time when everything at the university, most things I mean, the university never went fully remote, but many things were remote. Certainly with research, you weren't allowed to do much human subject contact research and for an honors college project for an undergraduate, you probably wouldn't be doing too much of that anyways. So we were kind of interested in coming up with a project that would allow her to do her research but not have to be in rooms with other people and that was kind of part of the framing of the project. And then also concurrent with that was a time when TikTok became really popular. So, like, at the beginning of lockdown, you know, I think TikTok really had a launch pad and people got really into it. So we were also, like, aware of this. It wasn't completely new, but kind of newish, social media platform that a lot of young people were using.

Lizzie Pope [00:10:04]:
And so with those, like, kind of 2 background pieces of information, I thought, oh, well, what is the health and nutrition content on this app? And what perspective is it coming from? Like, I think I had seen on my feed that there was a lot of weight inclusive content, like dietitians or other influencers who come from a weight inclusive perspective. And I was like, oh my god. This is great. Like, they're talking about weight inclusive principles, intuitive eating, anti fat bias, fat liberation, like, all the body liberation, all these things. And I was like, great. I mean, if this is what you see on TikTok, it's fantastic. But my honors college student was like, that's not what I'm seeing on TikTok. I I don't see any of that.

Lizzie Pope [00:10:46]:
And that made us more aware of the fact that TikTok has a very unique algorithm. And so we thought, okay. Let's look into this. Like, what is the most popular nutrition and weight related content on TikTok? And that was the launching pad of the project was to see, like, what perspective that content was coming.

Leah Kern [00:11:05]:
Yeah. I think that speaks so much to, like, how strong the algorithm is of, like, you're a weight inclusive, anti diet professor, and that's, like, your whole world. Of course, that's also gonna be reflected in your feed. But a lot of students and a lot of other people, that's not their world, so it's not reflected in their feed.

Lizzie Pope [00:11:23]:
I would also say, like, now, I I basically don't get any nutrition great, but you see mostly it's just stuff you don't agree with. And when I'm on TikTok, it's usually for fun. So I don't wanna get upset. Me too. And you know what?

Leah Kern [00:11:43]:
That has me reflecting. Like, I'm, like, rarely served any nutrition content on either end of the spectrum. And I think it's just because it's like, though that's a part of my identity, it's, like, not why I'm on TikTok. I wanna, like, unplug and watch, like, silly videos.

Lizzie Pope [00:11:57]:
Exactly. I don't see any of it. And so sometimes I'm confused and I'll have students that will come to my class and they'll be like, well, did you see x y z on TikTok? And it'll be like this probiotic or this trend or this. And I'm like, no. I don't see that. So then I have to go look at it so I can deconstruct it with them, but the algorithm is quite powerful. If you interact with things, you will get fed more of that thing.

Leah Kern [00:12:19]:
Right. So it sounds like the combination of it being the pandemic, this being like a virtual thing, plus, like, oops, plus, like, the perfect storm of TikTok really surging in the the in that time is what created the interest for you and your honors college student to to do this research. And then for this research, you looked at the top a 100 videos from 10 popular food and nutrition related hashtags. And you shared that you found 3 key themes in the videos, glorification of weight loss, the positioning of food to achieve health and thinness, and the lack of expert voices providing nutrition information. So can we break these down starting with the glorification of weight loss?

Lizzie Pope [00:13:00]:
When we look at themes where for people that, like, aren't familiar with qualitative research, we're just out of the 1,000 videos that we looked at, what were kind of threads that tied those videos together or what kind of messages kept appearing. And the glorification of weight loss was just overwhelming. I mean, so many of the TikToks talked about weight loss or said do this to lose weight or showed, like, an exercise routine or meal prepping all designed for weight loss. And that wasn't that surprising when you looked at the hashtags that we were looking at because, like, we did them by popularity. So we brainstormed all sorts of words that were related to food or nutrition, like weight loss or nutrition or anti diet or intuitive eating. And we looked at the most popular ones because those are gonna be the ones that the most people are shown. And so like, weight loss was the biggest hashtag that we had and there was 9,700,000,000 views of videos with hashtag weight loss. So then it's not surprising that we saw a glorification of weight loss throughout our data.

Lizzie Pope [00:14:07]:
But it was to the point where I had to check-in with the undergrads that were working on the project because we had multiple we had, like, my one student who's an author on the paper, but then we had several other students who are helping us code all of this data. And I had to check-in and be like, are y'all okay? Because I started to realize, oh my gosh, they're watching all of this weight loss content. You know, I'm a little bit concerned about their well-being. And that's just to say that, like, if you like one weight loss video on TikTok, if you if you even watch the whole thing to the end, let alone if you press the like or you comment, you are gonna immediately be fed more of that content. And that's just so dangerous. So this, like, intense glorification of weight loss just goes into diet culture, building this troublesome relationship that so many of us have, and this idea that, like, weight loss is possible. Because all the videos are like, I just did this and you can do it too. And there's this underlying messaging of like, if you're not able to lose weight, you're just not trying hard enough.

Lizzie Pope [00:15:10]:
Because, like, I did. And some of them would literally use an audio that was, like, you know, it was almost like a coach talking to somebody like, the only reason you don't achieve your goals is if you're not working hard enough, like that kind of an audio. And so they were really difficult videos to see so many of. And I guess that's the best way I can describe the theme. It's just like literally a glorification of weight loss. That's why we chose those words.

Leah Kern [00:15:35]:
To back up a second, you said it was 9,700,000,000 videos associated with the hashtag.

Lizzie Pope [00:15:41]:
Hashtag weight loss was 9,700,000,000, weight loss journey was 2,100,000,000, Weight loss check was 1,300,000,000. And those were all in our top 10 hashtag list.

Leah Kern [00:15:52]:
Do you have, like, comparative to any anti diet, like, just for reference how much?

Lizzie Pope [00:15:57]:
We had intuitive eating on our initial list of things that we were of terms that we were considering using in a project, and intuitive eating only had 111,200,000 compared to the smallest weight loss one which had 1,300,000,000. So we're talking like orders of magnitude

Leah Kern [00:16:16]:
Wow.

Lizzie Pope [00:16:17]:
More. So intuitive eating didn't make it into our study because it wasn't one of the 10 most popular terms. And we thought a lot about that because we're like, well, we won't see probably won't see that much anti diet content or weight inclusive content if we're not deliberately including anti diet type hashtags. But that's not what's on TikTok. That's a small percentage of the huge amount of nutrition and weight related content, so we couldn't include it.

Leah Kern [00:16:41]:
And the point of the study was to look at the most popular messaging on TikTok. Right?

Lizzie Pope [00:16:49]:
Right. And that was not it. So I'd say the the biggest kind of more anti diet one that we were able to include, because it was in the top ten, was body positivity which had 2,000,000,000. And we know that there's cons to that wording and it can be very individualized and it doesn't always get at, like, anti fat bias, for example, and deconstructing that. But that was probably one of the ones we thought would be anti diet. We also thought that hashtag plus size might be anti diet, but turned out it wasn't really. It was more like people that called themselves plus size showing how they would lose weight or basically justifying being like, yeah, I'm plus size and a lot of people don't like that, but I'm still worthy. But it was just the way they were doing it was so self deprecating.

Lizzie Pope [00:17:45]:
It was not like an ownership of, like, I'm in a bigger body and that's awesome and I'm totally fine. It was like, I will change, I can change type of messaging. So even that hashtag that we thought would be neutral kind of wasn't. And then another one that we thought would be perhaps neutral was hashtag nutrition. And still there you find, like, a lot of diet type messaging. So throughout all the hashtags, even the ones that we thought, oh, what I eat in a day, we thought, oh, what I eat in a day, people will just show, like, all the fun foods they eat in a day. Because I sometimes show one of those to my class where it's just like the 16 year old eating all sorts of food. Just of all types, just a lot of food.

Lizzie Pope [00:18:29]:
But that's not what what I eat in a day is used for. In fact, like, they had to put an eating disorder warning on what I eat in a day on TikTok for a period of time. I don't know if it's still there because it was used by people to show how little they'd eat in a day. So, like, all the hashtags ended up showing this kind of weight normative content.

Leah Kern [00:18:48]:
It's interesting the whole conversation around, like, okay. Well, if we don't look at anti diet hashtags, then, like, what's that gonna do to the study? But if you look at the whole point of the study, like, it that speaks volumes that the anti diet hashtags didn't even have enough ranking to be in the top 10.

Lizzie Pope [00:19:02]:
No. They weren't even close. Yeah. Yeah. So we we tried. We had, like, diet culture. It only had 60,100,000 views when we looked for it. Anti diet as the hashtag had 22.5.

Lizzie Pope [00:19:15]:
So again, it's just like orders of magnitude less than these other ones.

Leah Kern [00:19:18]:
So the first theme, glorification of weight loss, pretty straightforward. This personal responsibility piece of like, it's all in your control. If you have enough discipline and like that, I can picture that audio you're describing. It's like these, like, motivational, like, Navy Seal type guys. Like, come on. Do it. So the second theme that you you noticed was the positioning of food to achieve health and fitness. Can you chat a little bit more about this one?

Lizzie Pope [00:19:45]:
Yeah. And just one other thing on the glorification of weight loss, Leo, is like, we know that weight loss is not achievable for most people. What is it? 95% of people who try to lose weight will regain it. And yet that was never mentioned. So it was like again, this is like the most toxic portrayal of weight loss that it's achievable and doable, but wasn't. Okay. And then, so we had the positioning of food for wellness and not for pleasure, basically. So when we would see food in the videos, it would be always to serve a purpose of making your body healthier or smaller.

Lizzie Pope [00:20:21]:
We added a code that was just like chicken, and we didn't report it because it was kind of just for for our group. But we saw so many meal prep videos with baked chicken, just like plain chicken. And we were like, oh my god. Why? Like, chicken, vegetables, sweet potatoes. Like, that would be like a meal that we just would see. And that's a great meal. Like, if you love that meal, I eat that meal sometimes, like, fantastic. But it was not as like, this is the most favorite meal I've ever eaten.

Lizzie Pope [00:20:51]:
It was just like, you're gonna make this and it's gonna help you to like achieve your health goals. And there's no sauces. There was no like satisfaction factor mentioned. Right? So this, like, positioning of food not as enjoyable, but either as, like, I guess just functional or even beyond that, like, a morality. Like, these are the foods you should eat if you wanna be healthy, if you wanna be thin, that type of positioning.

Leah Kern [00:21:17]:
The word that's coming to mind is like utility. Like, food is, like it's, like, for utility. Like, it's, like, very much like that food is fuel and only fuel. Like, forget about connection, pleasure, satisfaction, any of these other, like, ritual, any other aspects of eating. Yeah. I mean, that certainly sounds like it checks out to me. When I hear that, I think of, like, pouring gas in a car. It's just, like, so detached from emotion or anything.

Leah Kern [00:21:42]:
Like, you are literally feeling the car, but, like, that's it. And it's just like it's so sad. It's just like missing out on so many other beautiful parts of food.

Lizzie Pope [00:21:52]:
And that's, like, what we felt was just completely missing from these videos. And and and granted a lot of them were, like, meal prep pet videos, but some of them are what I eat in a days and they would just be so you said utility, so utilitarian foods. And again, there's nothing wrong with eating simple foods. I mean, we don't all have time to cook 5 star meals. I eat tons of simple foods. And there's nothing wrong with eating repetitive foods, like if you have to meal prep for the week. That wasn't really the problem. It was just like the tone in which it was portrayed.

Lizzie Pope [00:22:23]:
And then the the goals that were attached to, like, why people were showing this type of food. And, of course, then there was also, like, certain TikToks that would promote certain diet foods, like eat these foods to be on the keto diet or drink this tea to, like, lose weight. So there was those 2, but the more striking, I think, theme to me was just this, like, portrayal of food absent of any pleasure or, like, taste preferences.

Leah Kern [00:22:50]:
Did you encounter any of, like, the sort of I mean, it sounds like you you just kinda hit on it with, like, the concept of, like, individual foods and magical thinking of, like, this one particular food can have this, like, very targeted outcome type stuff.

Lizzie Pope [00:23:02]:
The one we saw the most was like this tea. Came up multiple times. These influencer, I'm pretty sure they were paid to do the tea, but they would make it sound like if you just drink this tea, you'll lose all this weight. So it's just about the tea, and really this is so so ridiculous. But these videos would have, like, millions of likes, 100 of thousands of likes.

Leah Kern [00:23:25]:
I'm literally writing a newsletter. I was writing it before we got on just now about my relationship with Kirkland Green Tea from Costco. Like, I was I was just there, like, stocking the house. We just moved. And I just, like, saw it out the corner of my eye. And I'm like, oh my god. Hi, old friend. Like, the things I used to think you could do for me, like, literally the magical thinking I had around this tea.

Leah Kern [00:23:46]:
And, like, I was that age where you're mostly not necessarily having, like, the best media literacy and, like, critical thinking. I'm like, okay. If I just have to drink this tea, like, I'll do it. Like, let me order it.

Lizzie Pope [00:23:57]:
Yeah. Well, that's I mean, like, both this theme and the last theme and probably related to the next theme of no expert voices was all these portrayals of, like, magical outcomes. And there's one TikTok that I just can't forget because it's just so outlandish and so bad. She looked like a high schooler and she had a before and after photo. And she was like, this is how I looked like before. And then she's like, this is how I look like now. And she had allegedly lost some weight. That's what it looks like in the pictures.

Lizzie Pope [00:24:27]:
And then she's like, do these 5 ab exercises and this will be your results too. And then she just goes through, like, the 5 ab exercises. She's like, do 3 sets of 10 of these, like and I and I was like, never. That would never result. Like, the what you just showed as your before and after would never result from doing 3 sets of 10 of 5 ab exercises in your bedroom. Like, no. And I use that in my class to with my students because it's so compelling. Like, if you're just a anybody, not even just a high schooler, like, you could be my age and going through those.

Lizzie Pope [00:25:05]:
And you're just scrolling and you're maybe not feeling so good about your body. And someone's like, oh, just do these 5 ab exercises and wow, look at these results. I have like a ripped stomach now. It's it's compelling. And so it takes a lot. It's quick. And even just could make you question like, oh, maybe that works.

Leah Kern [00:25:22]:
Right. Yeah. And then the compounded shame of, like, well, it didn't work. Like, what's wrong with me? The amount of people I'm sure that can relate to the experience of, like, feverishly doing ab exercises, like, before getting in the shower or, like, on their bedroom floor, like, in a desperate sort of, like, scramble to, like, see some change or to repent for a binge or something when really something like that has so much more to do with genetic wiring. Like, I so, like, for me, like, it doesn't matter how many ab workouts I did. I will never have a 6 pack just because, like, that's how my family line is. Like, that's just the way our stomachs are. And that's a piece that's so often missed in this conversation.

Lizzie Pope [00:26:02]:
Huge. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's like that video, the portrait is so much wrong. Certainly, it's not getting at the genetics, but even, like, let's say you wanted to pursue having these ripped abs if it is in your genetics. Like, 5 ab exercises is also not gonna get it done. So on multiple levels, it's just so wrong. So it really stood out to me.

Lizzie Pope [00:26:24]:
And and to the students that were working with me on the project, they were like, oh my god. This is terrible.

Leah Kern [00:26:29]:
From the amount of TikTok videos you had to watch, I'm just, like, imagining how many Liv Renfri in your head now. Like, you just, like, randomly that girl being, like, do these exercises. Like

Lizzie Pope [00:26:38]:
Terrible. Yeah. And, like, when you're coding, like, we went through everything, like, probably twice at least, and some things, like, 3 times if we were going back to look at something. So Marissa, the student whose thesis this was, and I, like, we spent a lot of time with these TikToks.

Leah Kern [00:26:54]:
I I can only imagine. So the third theme that you wrote about is the lack of expert voices providing nutrition information. And then sort of, like, part 2 to that one being the lack of diversity amongst the people sharing nutrition information. So can you expand on how this theme manifested in the content?

Lizzie Pope [00:27:15]:
The way that we tried to figure out if someone was a quote, unquote expert or not, and we were literally just looking for credentials, so we weren't going further to even see because some dietitians will say that they're an expert, but they really don't know anything. I mean, like, we weren't looking into that that far, but we were trying to see, like, did someone say I'm a personal trainer and they say what their certification is. So not just I'm a personal trainer, but, like, I have a CSCS or a certification or whatever. Does someone say I'm an MD or an MP or a dietitian? And so they had to self identify in their video somehow either verbally or in the caption, Of all the videos, 1.4% were created by registered dietitians, and those are supposed to be the nutrition experts. So that was concerning to us that there's so much nutrition and weight loss advice being given on this platform, but 1.4% is from, like, the nutrition experts. And I think that says a lot about the type of information that you're likely to encounter if you try to get food and nutrition information on social media, unless you really know and you've specifically follow particular creators that you know are, like, dietitians. And I I don't mean to to say that there's no good people on these platforms because I know dietitians who are fantastic on these platforms. And I know, like, you're getting off some social media, Leah, which is really interesting.

Lizzie Pope [00:28:44]:
But we both know dietitians who function really well in those spaces and provide great service to everyone. I mean, I learn from some dietitians that are on social media sometimes. But unless you're gonna be really deliberate about who you're following, I think it can be just a terrible idea to get any sort of food and nutrition inspiration or advice on these social medias. And then the other piece where you mentioned which is like the lack of diversity that we saw, we just didn't see that diverse in really any category of diversity of creators. But the one thing that was interesting is most of the creators were young. So it was mostly young people providing this content. And that makes sense because TikTok's biggest demographic is young people. But so then it's like young people talking to young people, and it's a bit concerning if like these are the themes that we see, which we just talked about, like, glorification of weight loss and like, utility of food.

Lizzie Pope [00:29:43]:
If those are the overarching themes, it's concerning that young people are hearing those.

Leah Kern [00:29:47]:
Absolutely. They're, like, less likely to think critically or have that lived experience to draw on. Yeah. So the lack of diversity piece, was that, like, amongst the category as a whole, amongst diet I mean, we know dietitians there's there's a problem with lack of diversity amongst dietitians.

Lizzie Pope [00:30:04]:
I don't know about that. It was just of a 1000 videos as a whole. So anytime there was a video that the creator was in the video, we tried to categorize, like, their age roughly. And obviously, there's subjectivity in this because most people aren't like, I'm 22 and this is my ethnicity and this is my race and this is my preferred gender. So we were using some of the methods that other social media studies had used and so there's subjectivity and error, I'm sure involved in, like, the categorization that we had to do, but it was of all the videos. So of the dietitians, do I know how many were people of color? No. But probably not very many since there's not very many as a whole in in the profession.

Leah Kern [00:30:49]:
So can we talk a little bit about the impact of the videos mostly coming from thin white woman?

Lizzie Pope [00:30:58]:
Well, I think there's multiple conclusions or impacts that you could draw from that. I think one is, like, if those are the people that whose videos are getting the most attention on TikTok, like, why is that? Why are they getting that social capital? So then it perpetuates ideas of, like, thin privilege and potentially, like, systemic racism from the algorithm depending on whether well, we didn't see that much representation of people of color. So I think, like, that certainly is true and it makes sense because if a lot of this stuff is perpetuating, like, successful weight loss methods, then, like, then people are gonna be seen as, like, the success stories, quote unquote. And then white women have been invested in, like, pursuing in this for a long time in many cases and, like, have benefited, but also been held back by this pursuit. Like, it's so complicated because if white women conform to thinness, there are benefits that they experience, but they're also held back by putting so much effort into this pursuit. And that goes like triple and double for anybody with some sort of intersectional identity. So I think that's an impact is just like perpetuation of these hierarchies that we've seen established. And then not hearing other perspectives is, of course another impact.

Lizzie Pope [00:32:33]:
Like, we don't know if this is a conversation that's happening in other communities. I'm sure there's parts of TikTok where,

Leah Kern [00:32:40]:
like, if you're a person

Lizzie Pope [00:32:41]:
of color, you might get fed a different algorithm. And the way that we selected videos wasn't from my account or for my students TikTok account, it was just like from a blank account. And so we shouldn't have been it shouldn't have known who we were and when we just tried to look at the the most liked videos in every hashtag. So hopefully, we weren't getting swayed by who it because once it knows who you are, it's gonna feed you more of that kind of stuff. So hopefully we were getting a kind of general sense of who's most represented and it kind of reflects, like, some of the same societal issues that we have generally, not just on social media.

Leah Kern [00:33:18]:
Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting that you made a blank account to try to get rid of some of the targeting. What do you feel like surprised you about doing this study?

Lizzie Pope [00:33:26]:
I think because, like, when I had first gotten on TikTok, I did have more weight inclusive content in my feed. I think I was kind of surprised that it just wasn't that popular. It really was a good reflection time of, like, this is my bubble. You know, when you have, like, a moment and you're like, oh my god, wait, everybody doesn't think this? And you realize like, oh my gosh, I've only been being fed things, like, in my bubble or I've only been looking at things that confirm my perspective. I think that was a big piece when I started to see, like, that's not how the study is going. We're not getting a lot of weight inclusive content. We're getting barely anything. And so that was surprising, but then when I was able to just separate it from my own experience, I was like, well, this isn't surprising at all Because most of society doesn't know anything about weight inclusivity.

Lizzie Pope [00:34:13]:
Like, it's still heavily invested in the pursuit of diet culture, and, like, we're so heavily marketed to pursue diet culture and rewarded for that pursuit that makes total sense. So it's kind of like a little surprise just because my personal experience, but then quickly being like, no. That makes complete sense.

Leah Kern [00:34:31]:
Would UVM ever or I don't know if other colleges do this, like, teach a course on how to convey nutrition information in social media content?

Lizzie Pope [00:34:42]:
That's a great idea, Leah. I know that we have, like, communication courses, not necessarily specific to nutrition, but there's like a health communication course, for example. And I'm guessing they probably cover aspects of this, but I do think so we're training students to be dietitians. And so if you're gonna be a dietitian, I think you have to make a choice whether you wanna have a professional social media account, and you could probably speak to this because of your experience. You have to make that choice, but if you do wanna have one, it's a lot of work. It's not something that I think you can kind of half ass. Honestly, that's why I've never had a professional account because I'm like, that's so much work. Like, I don't have time.

Leah Kern [00:35:19]:
And you're, like, already making content for all your, like, lesson plans.

Lizzie Pope [00:35:22]:
Yeah. I don't have time to educate on social media. I'm just gonna have fun over here so I don't have a professional presence on these platforms. But I think for our students, they are really interested. Some of them already have pseudo professional accounts and they are interested in, so many of them are interested in private practice and I think they feel like if they're gonna be in private practice, they need to have a social media presence because that's gonna help them build their business. And I'm sure you have thoughts on that. So are we doing them a disservice by not really digging in on this? Potentially. And so a nutrition communication course is something that I think would definitely benefit our students.

Leah Kern [00:36:02]:
Yeah. It's it's such a thing you don't realize, like, when you're immersed in other dietitians or RDs to be, like, you start like getting so deep into the world that you don't realize like the gap between the public and dietitians and and how to convey things. And even beyond social media, just like if you're asked to give a corporate wellness talk or whatever, like, how to make it make sense and make it, like, accessible to the public, I think is such a key skill as a dietitian.

Lizzie Pope [00:36:31]:
Yeah. And I find it's even harder when you're trying to educate about weight inclusive content because there's so much unlearning that has to happen from the audience. And so I find it almost impossible to do, like, a 1 hour weight inclusivity intuitive eating talk. I mean, I've I've done it multiple times, but in order to really get through it, I'm like, no. You have to come to my course where we spend, like, basically trying to start doing this unlearning and then an intensive 4 week block at the end where we really do it. So I think that from a weight inclusive perspective, it can sometimes be even harder.

Leah Kern [00:37:07]:
It's hard. Yeah. I don't know if I told you this. I spoke to a group of doctors in Marin County. It was virtual, but it was like a lunch and learn for them, and I got continuing ed, whatever the CMEs for it. And what helped me was just so much expectation setting of, like, you're gonna have a lot of cognitive dissidents, and, like, you're gonna have a lot of questions. Because, like you said, there's so much if you're speaking to a group that, like, has no prior knowledge, it's it's impossible. In 1 hour, it's impossible.

Lizzie Pope [00:37:38]:
Or is deeply invested in a weight normative, and I think that that is the best way you can do it. It's just like, this is gonna be uncomfortable. And I do use that tactic all the time too. Just like just gonna throw another idea out here. Don't wanna threaten you. Just gonna present some other ways of knowing. And also matching your evidence to what they're gonna respect as evidence. So I find that that's really important too.

Lizzie Pope [00:38:05]:
Like, when I'm talking to other researchers or medical people, I have to cite peer reviewed sources. And there's some really key papers that are so helpful with this, like Jeffrey Hunger has one, Tracy Tilka. And I psychos all the time when I'm with these people. And that is like an evidence source that they respect. So they at least have to be like like, it does kinda throw them for a bit of a loop. But if I was to present other sources of evidence that I use all the time in, like, my work that are more maybe personal accounts or less based in, like, traditional scientific study, like books and blog posts and things like that. It's so easy for those who are deeply invested in science to be like, that that way of knowing is not worth my time.

Leah Kern [00:38:56]:
You have to, like, speak their language.

Lizzie Pope [00:38:58]:
Matching. Yeah. You have to speak their language. Exactly.

Leah Kern [00:39:01]:
Yeah. This is not an original, like, kind of concept, but somewhere along the way, somebody compared the progression of, like, understanding germ theory to weight inclusivity. Have you heard about this?

Lizzie Pope [00:39:15]:
I think so. I can see how it would work.

Leah Kern [00:39:17]:
And I and I use this when I spoke to the doctors. The idea at first when when I think it was Louis Pasteur. It was a few people. But the idea when when someone was like, hey, guys. Like, there's these things we can't see, and they're, like, causing infections, and we really need to be, like, washing our hands intensely before surgery. And these doctors are like, wash your hands. Like, things you can't see, like, that's ridiculous. And now we look back on that, we're like, oh my god.

Leah Kern [00:39:42]:
To think that people were doing surgery and how many infections and avoidable deaths were happening without washing their hands, like, that's like, looking back, it's just ridiculous to us now. And I I use that to try and invite someone to say, like, you know, what if we look back on how long we spent focusing on intentional weight loss and the way we treated people in larger bodies and the avoidable deaths that resulted in in all of that, and say like, oh my god, to think that that used to be our medical model.

Lizzie Pope [00:40:10]:
Totally. I think that's such a nice parallel. I'd love that I'm gonna use that now. Thank you, Leah. What do

Leah Kern [00:40:17]:
you hope people will take away from this research?

Lizzie Pope [00:40:22]:
I hope people will understand that getting nutrition and food advice on social media is really dicey. And it might be your best strategy to try to to just eliminate that type of content except for, like, as we talked about well vetted sources that you trust. Because if you're trying to rehabilitate or change your relationship with food, which I think probably many people listen to this podcast have or are in the process of, These social media posts, I don't think they help with that because they, again, they have this, like, siren song to just keep you, like, involved in diet culture and to keep that door open in the back of your mind. It's like, oh, well, what about this one other thing that I didn't try yet? So I think it it can be really difficult to change your relationship with food for the better if you're on one hand getting inundated with content that is just like somebody down the street who decides to, like, post their diet. Well, you shouldn't care about that. So I think that's what I would say is, like, just being really critical about what you're seeing on your social media and really really thinking about if you wanna see anything related to food and nutrition. And if you do, then just making sure that it's coming from sources that are in line with your philosophy or maybe you're like, I need to get cooking ideas from social media. Okay.

Lizzie Pope [00:41:58]:
Well, like, are you just subscribed to accounts that are like very much not diet culture type of cooking, just like here's a meal idea for dinner. Just being really conscientious would be my takeaway because it's it's not that supportive out there.

Leah Kern [00:42:13]:
Yeah. Yeah. And just for someone listening to this to really know that the weight normative content is what predominates TikTok, like and and probably reflected on other social medias.

Lizzie Pope [00:42:24]:
And even the weight inclusive content because you might be like, oh, well, I only follow weight inclusive creators or like my algorithm has become that. That's great. But like if you ever end up in the comments, sometimes the comments of you of those videos can be really quite nasty and the poster has to do a lot of work to, like, keep them clean.

Leah Kern [00:42:40]:
Sometimes weight inclusive creators who totally mean well will duet with other with creators that are very diet centric. And I think about something Christy Harrison talks about, which is, like, something to help prevent the spread of mis and disinformation. And it's like you think doing that is actually helping, but it's ultimately spreading it more because now that person had to watch that, like, thinking of that guy, Bobby, something who, like, shames his child. Is it Bobby approved or whatever? And now it's like, okay. That's in my head. And, like, I don't need that in my head, but, like, there it

Lizzie Pope [00:43:13]:
is. Right. Yep. Yeah. And then you just spread it to your whole audience as well. So just, like, being careful. But, yeah, they on the other hand, it's like, yeah, someone doesn't need to take Bobby.

Leah Kern [00:43:23]:
Exactly. And maybe for some people, that's a way that they get fired up and that's how they learn. For me, like, I it took me a while to figure out what it was, but that whole, like, duetting thing never felt right to me. And no judgment to people who do it, because I think for some people, that might be how they learn. But, yeah, learning about Chrissie Harrison's tips to, like, prevent spreading this and disinformation made a lot of sense to me. Like, it's still it's still spreading it even if you're taking it down. Is there anything we missed that you feel like is important to share in the context of this research?

Lizzie Pope [00:43:55]:
No. I mean, I think we've hit the high notes and I'm really interested in how social media shapes our relationship with food and body. I think it has a big role in shaping that culture that just perpetuates. So that's kind of why we got into it, and we're still doing some work on those lines. So it's been an interesting area. And so

Leah Kern [00:44:17]:
many of the people I've had on the the show and my own story, for so many people, I find, like, it's not necessarily, like, the the inception of the disordered eating, but it's like this, like, incredible fuel to the fire that, like, really can take you from a place where you're, like, you're okay to, like, you're in a disordered and difficult situation. Yeah. And in my story, like, I I think I just sort of missed the come up of of Instagram, like, in my, like, kind of formative years. I mean, of course, I still had it. But for me, it was really Pinterest and Tumblr. It was like I had these, like, hidden Pinterest boards that were, like, goals and then Tumblr too. It's like Tumblr is like was like the I don't know. Did you ever go on Tumblr?

Lizzie Pope [00:44:59]:
Very little. I never I never got into Tumblr. I think I just, like, knew it was big in Taylor Swift fan communities. I think that's, like, when I tried to go on once was for that reason, but I never, like, really got into it.

Leah Kern [00:45:11]:
Yeah. Yeah. Those are my 2, like, problematic sources of of, like, you know, body expectations and and food information.

Lizzie Pope [00:45:19]:
I could see why. Yeah. Yeah.

Leah Kern [00:45:21]:
And we usually ask everyone on the show your biggest diet culture pet peeve. So maybe it's different than the one that you answered over a year ago when you came on. But what's what's a current diet culture pet peeve you have?

Lizzie Pope [00:45:34]:
Sometimes my diet culture pet peeves are the things that, like, I feel my students are asking me about, and so they just kinda drive me nuts because they're usually driven by so not I'm never mad about my students for asking about them. Let's be clear. It's just like I get mad that they are driving my students nuts. So right now, I would say my current pet peeves are this whole thing about the gut microbiome and weight or something that's going on on TikTok and all my students are, like, asking me about gut microbiome and hormones and weight. And, like, yes, all of that stuff is important and let's talk about your hormones and how they impact. But how it gets portrayed in social media is just drives me nuts. And then this whole thing with, like, blue zones and then you are what you eat on Netflix, those 2 documentaries. Like, I've had students be like, have you watched those? We should talk about them in class.

Lizzie Pope [00:46:26]:
Which again, like, that's totally legit. I can see why they they're asking me this. But I'm like, no, Netflix. Just please, could you stop with these documents, please?

Leah Kern [00:46:35]:
Yeah. They've been coming up in my client sessions. And it's funny. A lot of people, like, my family members have been like like, people who don't understand that much, like, they've been, like, because I'm a twin. And, I mean, I'm not an identical twin, so, like, wouldn't have been qualified for the study. But still, like, people are like, Leah, it's about twins and nutrition. Like, it's perfect for you. And I'm like I tried to watch it just to, like, understand what was going on.

Leah Kern [00:46:53]:
I was like, I can't I can't do this. Like, I also, after 10 minutes, I already get the gist.

Lizzie Pope [00:46:58]:
I know. I just want someone to do, like, a summary. Like, I I'm waiting for, like, one of these good newsletter for people like you to do, like, a summary of why it's terrible.

Leah Kern [00:47:07]:
Someone has done it. I can't remember who. Someone did, like, a review of what of that twin one. I I have to think about who it was and send it to.

Lizzie Pope [00:47:14]:
Okay. If you find it.

Leah Kern [00:47:15]:
Yeah. But, yeah, that's, like, a great thing to do because it just, like, nips it in the butt. Like, here's all the things you're probably wondering. Here's why. And, like, I talk about with with my clients. It's like, it's a documentary. Everything that they're curating is to to support their specific angle. And, like, I remember when the other one came out, what what was, like, game changers about, like, veganism or whatever.

Leah Kern [00:47:36]:
And it's like, often if you look at who's funding the the documentary, it's like, yes, some, like, meatless meat company or something, you know, who has major stake in it. So when you start kinda looking at that and poking holes, I think it it helps people to see, like, these things can be very compelling with the music and, like, the production. But we have to remember, like, they're trying to support one single theme, and they're not necessarily looking at the whole picture.

Lizzie Pope [00:48:04]:
Yeah. Totally. I agree. I mean, I said to my students, I'm like, yeah. The thing is I don't watch nutrition documentaries for fun. That that's like work for me. So when I have time to watch like a 2 hour documentary during my work day, I will definitely get to that. But let's, like, deconstruct some of the themes that, as you said, like, the funding and the sensationalism and the agenda.

Lizzie Pope [00:48:30]:
And sometimes there's some good information we can pull that out too, but this usually so all or nothing and designed to, like, scare in a certain way. So I'd say those are my pet peeves. I'm just like, please, can we have the next citizen of Bridgerton? We do not need more food documentary.

Leah Kern [00:48:47]:
You know, it's funny. The one game changer is when it came out. I was working at Trader Joe's in Burlington, and I could literally see I was convinced I could see reflected in the carts, like, all the, like, purchasing of the meatless meats and the

Lizzie Pope [00:49:01]:
I mean, that would be an interesting study.

Leah Kern [00:49:02]:
God, it was so I I used to, like, that was so interesting. Working at Trader Joe's and becoming a dietitian at the same time, like, sometimes someone's car and, of course, you never know the whole story, but I would just think often, like, I wonder if you're okay. I wonder if you're buying these things because you're really craving them. Or, like, do you feel like you have to eat these things? And then, like, sometimes I would see people with, like, a cart full of, like, the protein cookie and, like, all these, like, quest bars and stuff. And I'm like, Well, thank you so much, Lizzy. I always love chatting with you, and the work you're doing is so amazing. It's so cool to to stay in touch even after, what is it now, several years since graduating. Is there anywhere you wanna point people? I guess, we'll definitely link to the study in in the show notes if they have questions.

Leah Kern [00:49:45]:
The

Lizzie Pope [00:49:46]:
study is open access, so anybody can read it, which is great. No. I think that that's it. We have our UVM nutrition program. I'm doing I have my research group. We're doing, some curriculum work for nutrition education in high schools. So if you're a high school health educator and you wanna get involved in that, you can reach out. But yeah.

Lizzie Pope [00:50:06]:
It was such a pleasure to be on, Leah. Thanks for having me again.

Leah Kern [00:50:09]:
Oh, yeah. First repeat guest. Big big title.

Lizzie Pope [00:50:13]:
Big honor. It truly is.

Leah Kern [00:50:14]:
Lizzy, friend of the pod.

Lizzie Pope [00:50:16]:
Yes. Friend of the pod.

Leah Kern [00:50:18]:
Thanks, Lizzy. Thanks so much for tuning in to this week's episode of Shoulders Down. If you enjoyed the episode, if it inspired you, or if you learned something, consider sharing it with someone to help spread the anti diet message. A special thanks to Softer Sounds for producing the podcast and making these conversations sound as beautiful as they feel. For more intuitive eating and body image support, visit leokeurnrd.com and check out the blog and our free resources. To stay in tune with me and what's happening in my business and personal life, subscribe to my newsletter at leokernrd.com/newsletter. Thanks for listening. Talk to you soon.