Dacy Gillespie 0:00 Without changing your eye and without beginning to train your eye to accept a diversity of bodies, it's really hard to shop Leah Kern 0:14 Welcome to Shoulders down a podcast for truth seekers who want to heal their relationships with food and body. I'm your host Leah Kern. And I'm an anti-diet dietitian, certified Intuitive Eating counselor and fellow truth seeker with personal experience navigating disordered eating. In this podcast, you'll learn to harness your body's innate wisdom to govern not just how you eat, but also how you live. It's my mission to help you heal your relationship with food and body so you can live your most aligned and fulfilling life. Welcome, and I'm so glad that you're here. Leah Kern 0:48 Welcome back to another episode of Shoulders Down. Today w have Dacy Gillespie on the podcast and she is an anti-diet personal stylist, which I think is just the coolest niche ever. And I'm really excited about like the direction that the podcast has been going in because I feel like early on a lot of my network was other dietitians, which is great, but I really appreciate hearing different perspectives within the anti diet world and Dacy's perspective through the lens of an anti diet. personal stylist, I think is just so unique. I really love her work. I've been following her work on substack, the newsletter she writes, which is called unflattering for some time now. And I loved this conversation and I think you will too. Another exciting thing about this conversation is here I am I'm announcing this on the podcast right now. For the first time. I am hosting a summer support panel in June. So I'm calling it the anti diet summer support panel. It's going to be on June 6 at 330. Pacific time or 630. Eastern or convert that to whatever time zone you're in. And it is a free event it is free panel a free offering for you to get support going into the summer, which is historically a challenging time for divesting from diet culture. Because diet culture noise gets especially allowed With summer coming. So we hear things like get summer ready, get your beach body. And this can trigger all kinds of restrictive thoughts and body image distress. So the anti diet summer support panel is a panel of four anti diet professionals who are here to support you in different realms and their different niches, bringing their unique expertise to the table. The free event includes Desi who you'll hear from today who will be supporting you through the lens of her work in her specialty as an anti diet personal stylist. She will be chatting about dealing with switching into summer clothes and dealing with dressing yourself in a way that feels like you in a way that feels authentic and aligned. Navigating the number of challenges that can come with putting clothes on your body that have been maybe in a closet or put away for the colder months. And the different stories that can come up there. There will be three other panelists as well. One of them you'll hear from in next week's podcast episode. Their name is Hannah husband and Hannah is an anti diet personal trainer. So Hannah will be talking about some are coming through the lens of their work as an anti diet personal trainer and movement coach. And then the other two panelists will be Bri Campos, who already had an episode that was live on shoulders down. Bri's episode was live on the feed on February 12. And the episode is called what we're getting wrong about body image. So definitely take a listen to that episode. If you want to get more of a feel for the different providers that will be supporting you in this panel. Bree is a body image therapist and experts so she will be bringing that perspective and expertise to the panel. There's so much body image distress that can come with summer months and being more exposing clothing and comparison and dealing with more social events. So she will guide you through some of those hurdles. And then the fourth panelist is me and I will be supporting you through some of the challenges that can come up on the food front and the relationship with food front. With the summer months coming. It can look like dealing with feeling out of control around food at the summer barbecues and the summer events. It can be the desire to restrict feeling more loud and prevalent because you're in more exposing clothing and the dye culture noise to shrink yourself gets especially loud in the summer, and how we navigate that and we'll be covering so much more. So the anti diet summer support panel is free and it is going to be a fun way to be in community and get lots of different support from different providers who hold different lived experiences and specialties within the anti diet world, I would love to see you there. And I hope that you will join us, you can sign up to join us for the anti diet summer support panel via the link in the show notes. And if you can't attend live, you can also get the recording. So either way, if you're busy on June 6, you can still sign up via the link in the show notes and get access to the recording. I also want to mention that I think one of the best parts of a panel is the opportunity to ask the panelists questions. Because sometimes we have like unique scenarios where we wonder about how the information applies to our specific life situation, there will be plenty of time to get to ask the panelists questions. And I think that that's super valuable part of this whole thing because it's like free support from for incredible anti diet professionals. So hope to see you there again, you can find that via the link in the show notes. And in today's episode, you'll get to really meet one of our panelists and hear a little bit more about her work. We talk about mindful shopping and minimalism. We talk about shopping intentionally, we talk about the cultural implications of the word flattering. We covered the idea of personal style versus using our clothing to try and make us look thinner. We talk about reframing our thoughts around body changes through aging. And we cover so much more. I really love this topic, and I can't wait for you to hear everything that's contained within this conversation. So I will share a little bit more info about Dacy with you and then we will dive right in. As a way inclusive anti diet personal stylists. Dacy Gillespie helps her clients reject fashion roles and ideal standards of beauty imposed by the patriarchy, white supremacy and capitalism so that they can uncover their authentic style through their work building a functional wardrobe. Dacy's clients make a mindset shift from thinking that they need to wear what's flattering to unapologetically taking up space in the world. After a lifetime of jobs and high stress careers that didn't suit her highly sensitive introverted personality. Dacy started Mindful Closet in 2013, in an attempt to create a more emotionally sustainable lifestyle. Her work has been featured in Forbes and real simple, and she is a frequent podcast guest. Desi is married and has two boys, ages five and nine. 7:23 Welcome to the podcast, Dacy. I'm so excited to have you here. Dacy Gillespie: I'm excited to be here. This will be fun. Leah Kern: I was just saying before we hit record, I was trying to remember how I found your work. And, yeah, a client was struggling with dressing herself and her sense of self through her clothes and fashion. I don't remember what I Googled, but when you came up, I was like, oh my gosh. An anti-diet personal stylist? Like, this is a dream person to send a client to because I just know she'll be safe. Dacy Gillespie: Yeah. I love that. Leah Kern: Yeah. So I'd love to start off by giving giving you the floor to share about your story with your relationship with food and body as much as you're comfortable getting into. Dacy Gillespie: Yeah. I mean, I'm comfortable talking about every aspect of it, but kind of a a bit of an odd thing about my story is that I didn't really enter this world of intuitive eating and anti diet and health at Every Size until I was working with women who were really hung up on their bodies. And I couldn't help them with their closets unless we worked through that because they were just being completely roadblock. So my my story, you know, I'll do it quickly because I don't wanna take up a ton of space doing this because I have been very, very lucky to be totally upfront and transparent. I was a very thin kid. I was a very thin person through my twenties thirties. And it was just metabolism, and it was just genetics. You know what I mean? I was certainly not taking any actions to do that, but I also have started over the last 5, 7 years to really unpack the internalized fat phobia I had and the especially, the privilege I had and what it feels like when that privilege starts to leave. Dacy Gillespie: And so I'm 47, 46. I'm 46 now, I think. And, you know, over the last 5 or 6 years, my body has has changed quite a lot. I have had 2 children. Just disclaimer, not that you have to have children for your body to change, but I have had 2 children and, you know, survived a pandemic and really in perimenopause now. So all those things have changed my body quite a bit. It feels to me like quite a lot. So, yeah. Dacy Gillespie: It's been interesting trying to unpack that as I'm helping other people do that as well. Leah Kern: Yeah. As you're sharing your story, another piece is kind of I'm remembering. Were you connected with Bree Campos? Dacy Gillespie: Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. I love her work. Yeah. Leah Kern: I think I found you through Google, and then, like, she endorsed you, and I I did her boot camp for providers. Dacy Gillespie: Oh, excellent. Yeah. She's a I love her. Yeah. I love her so much. Leah Kern: Yeah. So you sort of came into this work through a backdoor, which which I love because so many of the people I have on the podcast, it's more of, like, they went to school to be a dietitian. They learned about, you know, the first were steeped in the weight centric world and then learned about the anti diet intuitive eating world. And it sounds like for you, it was like, how are you gonna help people with clothes if they're feeling so terrible in their body that they, like, don't even wanna look in the mirror? Dacy Gillespie: Yeah. Yeah. That was a lot of it. I mean, you know, the work that I do with clients from the beginning has been to try and define their style, try to edit their closets, and try to help them reflect on their shopping habits and make some shifts in their shopping habits if that's something they want or need to do. And I found that I could not really do any of those things without working towards body acceptance. Like, we can't get rid of things from our closet if we haven't started to accept the concept that it's okay for my body to change. Because if not, we keep those clothes because society has told us you are doing something wrong if you're not spending all your energy trying to fit back into them and change your body. And then with shopping as well, it takes a lot of body acceptance to say, like, this is where my body is now, and this body deserves close to fit. Dacy Gillespie: And I'm not going to deprive myself of that, and I'm not going to buy the wrong size. Leah Kern: Mhmm. Absolutely. So when in your story do you go from doing personal stylist work to defining yourself as an anti diet personal stylist? Dacy Gillespie: That's a good question. So I started my business 11 years ago, and it was initially, my focus was minimalism. That was kind of like the height of the minimalism craze, and I I personally, like, I'm highly sensitive. I'm an introvert. I'm very, you know, sincerely aware of things. And so I really love minimalism personally because it's it calms me. And concerned and and do want to advocate for a lower amount of consumption in the world, especially around clothes. It's a huge problem. Dacy Gillespie: So bay I basically thought, like, I'll just go in to people's closets, make them get rid of all the stuff that they're not using, you know, buy them a few new things intentionally, mindfully. Obviously, that's the name of my business, Mindful Closet, and we'll be done. And I don't know. I mean, it was a year or 2 in. It had been happening with every single client and I had been trying to work around it with them while also not endorsing any of that stuff. And so I I started at that point looking for this. And, you know, of course, found that world. And I would say, probably 4 or 5 years ago is when I really just shifted to make that my absolute focus. Leah Kern: Yeah. And have you noticed, like, a different kind of client coming to you as you've clearly defined yourself as an anti diet personal stylist? Dacy Gillespie: Yes. Which I love so much. So I will say, you know, I'm in Saint Louis. And for the 1st few years of my business, I really was just working with people locally. And that was okay. But definitely, they were not people who had much interest in rejecting some of those messages. They were really were concerned with upholding them, with wearing what's flattering, with keeping up with the Joneses, that kind of stuff. Not all of them, but but some of them. Dacy Gillespie: And then the silver lining of the pandemic for me was that everything went virtual. And I started to do everything virtual. I had done a bit virtually over the years, but I switched to fully virtual, which I have been since 2020. And now I have, you know, the world as my market. And I do find that people who come to me are they're on this journey in some form whether early or or later, but they're aware of this stuff and on wanting to work on it. Leah Kern: And in your own story, did you it sounds like you have a lot of awareness of growing up with body privilege that maybe didn't send you down some of the disordered eating pathways. Did you have your own experience with intuitive eating, or or do you fall into the camp of someone who is, like, untouched by diet culture in the sense of, like, it not corrupting your relationship with food? Dacy Gillespie: No. Definitely not. I mean, I am lucky. You know, again, because of my privilege, I never to be perfectly honest, it's this is it sounds weird coming out of my mouth, but I never did feel the pressure to change my body because I already had what society considered a small, thin body. However, that's not to say I didn't have my issues around food, and I certainly did. And yes, I went through my own intuitive eating journey in 2020, 2021. Yeah. So I worked with Rachel Cole who's an intuitive eating coach and, also in Oakland, actually. Dacy Gillespie: And, yeah, I have done the whole practice. It's helped me immensely. I mean, that's kind of that. Leah Kern: It's awesome. The people coming to you, you can understand their experience probably on on so many levels and, of course, not on every level because we all have Dacy Gillespie: Of course. Leah Kern: Identities. When people are struggling with their body image, how does that play into our close buying behaviors? Dacy Gillespie: Oh, yeah. I mean, that's a great question. And I do think they're inextricably linked. You know, I have a Substack article titled, you know, you can't be a minimalist if you're not working towards body acceptance, basically. Because again, if you are not accepting or working towards acceptance of where your body is now, you're gonna hold on to these things from a past body, from a past life. And you're also going to continue to shop and shop and shop, hoping that there will be some magic piece of clothing that's gonna suddenly make you like your body and that doesn't really exist. So, yeah, I mean, without changing your eye and without beginning to train your eye to accept a diversity of bodies, it's really hard to shop. And I think the other thing too, is that people, when they're doing that, they're buying a lot and then it's hanging there because what almost all the women I've ever talked to believe is that if these clothes don't fit me well, it's my body that's the problem. Dacy Gillespie: So they think I'll make that work. I'll keep those clothes. I'll make them work because, clearly, I can change something about myself to make those clothes work. When actually, in a 100% of the cases, it's the clothes fault that they don't fit your body. It's because clothes are mass manufactured. It's because clothes are not tailored to your body. Your body is not the piece that is wrong. It's how the clothes are made. Dacy Gillespie: And so really coming to an acceptance of that, of the fact that it's normal for bodies to change over time. Otherwise, yeah, you can't really fix any of those other issues. Leah Kern: Yeah. It's so much bigger than just, oh, I need a piece of clothing to make me feel valid. It's like this bigger message that we're taught in society, which is, like, I need something outside of myself Dacy Gillespie: to be Leah Kern: valid, whether it's, like, the next skin care product or some gadget or diet. Like, it's like and it's because it's so much more profitable if we believe that versus I'm already valid. Like, the things I already have in my closet or, like, the way my body already looks or whatever. And I just think about how it's so linked to capitalism. Dacy Gillespie: Oh, a 100%. Yeah. And and when you mentioned, you know, diets, I see, quote, fashion rules as the same as a diet. It is some external person telling you what's best for your body. They've none of your experience. They don't even know you. They're prescribing this advice for everyone around the world according to patriarchal and white supremacist standards. And, yeah, you have to anti diet your way out of fashion rules too. Dacy Gillespie: Again, because then you'll continue to consume trying to achieve that that standard. Leah Kern: Yes. Oh my god. And it's like the same in the sense that, like, these rules, they've rent free in our head just like diet rules of, like I remember once my mom being like, yellow washes you out. And I'm like, okay. Nope. Don't wear yellow. Like, you know, and it's, like, don't wear navy and black together. I'm, like, okay. Leah Kern: Well, don't don't do that. Like, you just start, like, gathering all these rules, and suddenly you're, like, I picture one of those, like, laser, like, rooms where you're trying to, like, get through everything without, like, getting shocked or whatever it is. Dacy Gillespie: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And and the capitalism piece is is exactly what we were talking about before where they want you to believe your body. This the piece that's wrong and not the clothing. And they want us not to examine what all this consumption is is doing for us and for the planet and all of that stuff. And the biggest piece of this, which I always try to I'm very passionate about is that with minimalism and with, you know, lots of things that comes up with food as well, but we are pressured to solve these problems on our own and to take individual responsibility for something that is a corporate and governmental responsibility. Dacy Gillespie: And so it's all about making money. Leah Kern: Yes. It's like these things are happening on a systems level. I just wanna go back to something you said about, like, this idea that, like, we're only one piece of clothing away from, like, finally liking ourselves to that perfect item. And that really resonates for me. I think about mostly, like, being in middle school and high school and even through college. If I can just get to Urban Outfitters, get to that sale rack, and find one thing, like, oh, I finally, like, be feel good going out this weekend. And it was just like, it was never it. And as I've grown up, I actually like, just yesterday, I was in Target with my partner not getting clothes, but, of course, I walked by the clothes and threw them. Leah Kern: And I observed the energetic high Leah Kern: of, like, oh, but what if I Leah Kern: found something? And then and then, like, reminded myself of, yeah, you would like it, and it would feel exciting for a little. And maybe it would make you feel good, but nothing's really gonna change deep down. Like, you're just gonna have this new pair of black yoga pants that people know they have. And and so I think that, like, it just making me reflect on, like, it's not that that feeling doesn't happen anymore, at least in my story, but there's a level of awareness of, oh, yeah. You're getting the surge of dopamine and just kind of examining it more of, oh, there that thing is. But having a level of detachment from, like, this isn't gonna change your life in the way that you've probably been marketed that it will. Dacy Gillespie: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Oh, I have so many thoughts. Yeah. The thing about that thinking the one thing from Urban Outfitters will solve everything is kind of a a result of a few things. It's a result of not having been thoughtful about your wardrobe in advance and trying to do something at the last minute when you're in a nervous system stress cycle, and you are a little bit foggy eyed, you know. And so the thing that you think is gonna be great and how many people have done this? Like, you buy all kinds of new clothes to take on a trip. Dacy Gillespie: You go on your trip, and you get there, and you're like, holy shit. I don't like any of this. Yeah. You know? It really is this thing where we're a little bit, like, distorted. This is probably not, like, a great phrase to use, but I compare it to drunk goggles. Like, when you're on that high, you're not thinking clearly. Like, you truly aren't. And that's kinda what originally my whole kind of basis was of the mindfulness was like, yes, let's recognize that and then let's pause. Dacy Gillespie: Because when you pause, your rational brain starts to come back in. You can look at that thing and say, well, I'm gonna need a special bra for that. I don't wanna do that. Or that's gonna fall off my shoulder. I didn't see that when I first looked at it. You know, whatever it is about the garment. And so, yeah, I mean, it it really is it's an interesting thing to think about. Leah Kern: The special bra thing. How many times have you been like, oh, I'll figure it out. I'll figure out. It's like, this is like No. Dacy Gillespie: Never gonna happen. Yep. Leah Kern: Okay. I'm dying to ask you about this. So my best friend and I hate the word flattering. And when I found your substack, I was like, Jamie, you gotta see this. Like because we it's just like I mean, it just ick all over it. And so your substack is called unflattering. I'd love to hear more about the origin of this name and to sort of unpack the modern cultural implications of the word flattering. Dacy Gillespie: Yeah. I started getting really irritated with that word, I don't know, 5 or 6 years ago. My clients couldn't stop using it. You know, just saying, like, when we would try and define their style, they would just say, well, I just want my clothes to be flattering. And I'm like, but that isn't like a thing that you like. What are the things you like? What colors do you like? What prints and patterns do you like? What shape of clothing do you like? How do you want it to fit your body? Like, those are all things that are a piece of your style makeup. But whether or not it's flattering is just you conforming to an external expectation, you know, that's been just put on top of us of this is the way your body should look. And so, yeah, I just started getting more and more vocal about it and, you know, just trying to deconstruct. Dacy Gillespie: What do we think is flattering and why? Why do we think that? When I'm actually in the middle of watching the last two seasons of Queer Eye to write about for my substack and trying to kind of examine what standards Tan is upholding when he dresses people. And he's done great work in other areas. I think he's just not really aware of the implications of saying something is flattering, which he should be. He really should be in this day and age. But when something is flattering, its purpose is to make you look smaller than possible. Its purpose is to create an optical illusion so that you can somehow trick people into thinking that you're smaller than you are. When we we take up the space we take up, you know, we're not gonna suddenly disappear. And, you know, focusing on that, as I was saying before, really takes you away from focusing on what your preferences are. Dacy Gillespie: What do you actually like? And maybe you don't like the stuff that's conventionally, quote, flattering. You know, I have a couple of these examples of that that I always give just to kind of illustrate it. But let's take, I hate fruit and shapes and all these things to describe your body, but let's take someone whose hips are proportionally larger than their shoulders. You know, in traditional kind of fashion rules, you'd call that pear shape. And the typical wisdom would be to make sure that you're wearing something with a high waist and that flares out, you know, below your waist to cover this offensive set of hips that is bigger in proportion than some of the other parts of your body. And when you picture picture that in your mind, what do you picture? You picture like a fifties dress, you know, like something very feminine, very retro, you know, small waist, full skirt. And what if you were, like, an edgy biker bitch? Like and you don't want to wear a 19 fifties style dress. You are absolutely kind of defeating yourself before you even get started. Dacy Gillespie: And there's just one more thing I'll say about it. I've I've also been reflecting on What Not to Wear, the show, as I'm looking at all this queer eye stuff. And Stacy London has evolved a bit in some things, and I think she's acknowledged a bit of the harm that that show did. But even as recent as 2, 3 years ago, I heard her on a podcast and someone was asking her, well, how do you know what your style is? And the first thing she says, your style has to be determined by your body shape. And it just blows my mind. Like, why? Why is that what has to define your style? And it is because that's upholding these standards a lot of us are trying to reject. So that was a long, long answer. But Leah Kern: I so much good stuff in there. I'm so glad you brought up what not to wear. I grew up watching that show with my mom. And I just like remembering the way that they would, like, portray the people. Like, they'd go into their house, and it would be, like, a non aesthetic home, and they'd be like, like, it was just, like, so, like, ruined. Dacy Gillespie: Cruel. It was really mean. It Leah Kern: was cruel. Yeah. It's like, what if you're watching that and you look like the before? Before they do the transformation. It's just like same problem with before and after pictures of bodies. It's like, well, what if I'm the before and I'm not trying to be the after? Like, I saw, like, some, like, influencer who's my age ish, and she sort of has, like, wide reaching niches, or she does, like, mental health stuff. She does stuff for former athletes. And she was doing this thing where she was, like, critiquing her old outfits, and she's someone with a lot of financial privilege. And so she she would post old pictures of herself and be like, ew. Leah Kern: I can't believe I wore that. Can't believe I wore that. And then she was posting screenshots. Someone had messaged her saying, hey. I wear those things. My outfits look like you being, like, before my style glow up. That's hurtful. And she was like, it's not meant to be hurtful. Leah Kern: Like, I can't help but say, like, those things aren't just aren't attractive or weren't flattering, whatever she said. And, yeah, I just think about when we do that, sort of, like, those, like, transformations and before and afters. What about all the people who are there all the before and don't want to change anything because they're perfectly fine the way they are? Dacy Gillespie: Yeah. I'm making a note here because I'm gonna I wanna include that in my article, like, this idea of because it is interesting to reflect on why do we, as humans, just love those that go for stories. You know? I mean, I love it. We all watch HGTV. You know, it's it's not just bodies, and I I really don't know. But, yeah, I like that reflecting on the people who were there before in these things. And, you know, and the things that I wanna point out about that show was that it really was cruel. Remember the word ambush? Like, they used that word. Dacy Gillespie: They were we're gonna ambush so and so today. And, like, you ambush someone and you literally tell them to your face, hey, you look terrible. And other people think you look terrible, and so we're gonna help you. And then there was that whole segment where they would go through this person's clothing totally making fun of and saying how disgusting their clothing was. Leah Kern: Like you're not gonna Dacy Gillespie: be Yeah. And throwing it like Yes. And throwing it in a little scan. And then there was you know, I'm putting this in my article, which is like, I can guarantee you as a personal stylist that at least 50%, probably more of the participants on that show never wore the clothes that they bought on that show. Leah Kern: Yes. I wanna talk about that. How do we because I think this happens where it's like you're in the store and you have you know, or you're with the personal stories of Stacy London, and you're, like, having this dream vision of who you're gonna be, but it doesn't, like, translate. And then when you get home, you don't actually feel comfortable to, like, wear something that's so outside the realm of your usual. How how do you kinda reconcile that or, I guess, almost, like, screen for that when shopping or in the store when trying on to avoid that, like, well, I just wasted money on those things. Dacy Gillespie: Yeah. There are a couple of things. I mean, I do a pretty in-depth process with people about trying to figure out what their personal style is. And it's there's a lot of things that we work through. But one thing is a huge facet of your personal style is the function that these clothes are gonna serve in your life. And so all those women that they dressed up in pencil skirts and 4 inch heels, again, I can guarantee you, those people were not going home. And then on their regular day at work, like, putting all that shit on, it's fucking uncomfortable for one thing. And so when we are shopping, if you don't have that established sense of your style, all this stuff is going to tempt you and you're not gonna know how to say no because you're gonna be influenced by the marketing and the mannequin styling. Dacy Gillespie: Or if you're online, you're gonna be influenced by influencers or the model photos or whatever it is. So you have to have a really secure sense of that before you can do any shopping. Like, I truly believe that. And then the other thing that I want always want people to, like, try and catch themselves and be aware of is, like, are you looking for clothing for your life or for a fantasy life? And what is the reality of your life? And how are these clothes going to make your life easier? You know, a lot of those things are gonna make your life harder and actually gonna be a waste of money. These are not gonna be functional. Leah Kern: Yeah. It just makes me think about, like, the woman in the pencil skirts and the 4 inch heels. Like, what will they wear to the grocery store to, like, pick their kids up from school? Like Mhmm. Thinking about the function it serves in the life you live. If your whole life is going to the office, and that's it, well, maybe that's a different story. But for most people, that's not the reality. Dacy Gillespie: Yeah. And I mean, again, just reflecting back on this. I mean, I love the show too. What was the host's goal on that show? It was really to make all our clients look slimmer and just ignoring all the rest of it. Ignoring their preferences, ignoring their lifestyle, just saying, like, we're gonna try and make these clothes as flattering as possible for you. I e make your body look smaller. Leah Kern: It's like such the undertone of all of this, of the word flattering, of the fashion shows and what they're trying to, like, get you to wear. Yeah. Dacy Gillespie: Yeah. And and I just wanna say one other thing too is I'm just having this thought right now, but, you know, what's taking the place of that is the TikTok and Instagram influencers who are telling you what to wear Yeah. And what trends you should be doing now and deriding you for wearing skinny jeans or Yes. You know, whatever the trend might be and picking apart those things. And like you said, yeah, that could be what someone's wearing today. And now they're going to a second later, they're gonna feel bad about themselves. Yeah. And what does it matter? Cares if someone wears skinny jeans? Why is it offensive to you? Right. Dacy Gillespie: They just don't get it. Leah Kern: I know. And TikTok, there'll be, like, 1 or 2 items that, like, I'm literally assaulted with in in my feed of, like, these Halara pants. Have you seen those? Dacy Gillespie: They're like Leah Kern: Oh, yeah. Literally, you need this. And I'm like, oh my god. Like, is this, like, next level? Like but to the where, like, I could see how someone would just be beaten down and being like, all of them girls who are like conventionally attractive, meet the thin ideal are saying I need this. So, like, maybe I do. Like, I don't know. Like, I feel like I have a really strong sense of self and body image, and I do this work professionally. And sometimes I'm like, like, do I need these Halara pants? Like, I don't I don't even like like dress pants, but, like, maybe I should get them. Dacy Gillespie: Yeah. I know. It's wild. It's the new marketing. Like, that's the way of marketing clothes and it's all just sales tactics. But it's hard to unpack when you're, like you said, assaulted with it. Leah Kern: To the person who's like, okay, I don't wanna follow the trends. I like skinny jeans. I still want my high waisted. I don't want the low rise or whatever it is. What's your advice for that person to, like, go out into the world knowing that they might be seen as, like, irrelevant or off trend and whatever sort of associations come with that? Dacy Gillespie: Yeah. I mean, a big part of the work that I try and do with women is to build a security in their own opinion. And with food, it's the same way. Right? Like, we are trying to quiet the external noise so that we can tap into what we actually like or want to eat or want to put on our body. And so if you've actually like or want to eat or want to put on our body. And so if you've examined that and you're like, this article of clothing works for my lifestyle. I like it. I like how it feels. Dacy Gillespie: I like how it looks, although that's less important. Then we have to go out there prioritizing our preferences over how it appears to someone externally. Because ultimately, those people have no bearing on our comfort or on our safe well, big disclaimer about safety. Some people are not safe to dress them whatever they want, and that's a whole other topic. But just the idea of being judged by someone else, we have to just devalue that. And it's a lifelong thing. This is not, like, overnight, you can do this. Leah Kern: Absolutely. Thinking of this friend I have who is a teacher, and she loves clothes. She loves style. And she's, like, so owns her self. She's like, I wear weird things. Like, I remember asking her. I was like, Victoria, all pants are, like, cropped these days, and she loves those, like, Dansko clogs. Dacy Gillespie: Oh, yeah. Leah Kern: And I was like, what do you do when it's cold out and your pants are cropped and the clogs are low? She's like, I wear weird things. I like my high socks, and I like to them to show. And she just had such, like, a confidence about how she said it. And same another story that's coming to mind too is my partner's sister who is, I guess, like, an older millennial for that, you know, term. It was just her birthday, and I was talking to her on her birthday, and she was, like, going shopping with my mom. And she was like, you know, I went all these stores. None of them have the things I wear. She's like, I didn't realize how out of trend I am. Leah Kern: She's like, I just wanted skinny jeans, and it was so hard to find them. And she also had such, like, an ownership of it where she's like, finally, I found them at Levi. Not like, oh, I went to all these stores and they didn't have them, so I changed what I what I'm wearing. It was I ended up finding it. And I just those are just 2 kind of recent anecdotes coming to mind of, like, people just owning it. Dacy Gillespie: Yeah. And I wanna point out, and I know you'll be aware of this too, but there is an inherent privilege in being able to do that. Right? Like, your friend who wears crazy socks, if she was in a larger body or is in a larger body, she's already gonna be scrutinized so much. And it might be too much to bear to, like, add that level of scrutiny on. And that is where the safety comes in. Like, sometimes you might tone down things just because you need to go out in the world and not be spoken to in a certain way or whatever. Or it could affect your job prospects. You know, there's all kinds of things like that. Dacy Gillespie: So I just wanna always throw that in. Leah Kern: I appreciate that. And I think that that's a really good point of, like, yeah, ultimately, people have body autonomy, and you can know that, like, other people's judgment doesn't matter and still feel like, well, you know, it's too much for me to bear. People have enough stories about me based on my Yeah. Skin color or my body size or whatever other marginalized identities. And, like, I can't also bear them thinking I'm cuckoo for dressing like this. Dacy Gillespie: Yeah. Leah Kern: I have so many questions for you. I'm like, which ones which ones will we get to? This one I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on. So another intuitive eating dietitian, I'm not even sure who or where I saw this, but she was speaking about body image and was suggesting that people wear what she called a uniform to avoid decision fatigue, and just, like, every day, you wear jeans and a black T shirt or whatever it is. And I'm curious your thoughts on this. Dacy Gillespie: Yeah. Well, in my work, I found that there are kind of 2 kinds of people. There are people, well, who come to me. In my clients, there are 2 groups. There's the group that has been interested in clothes since they were little, who just really enjoys looking in clothes, buying clothes, wearing clothes. And then there's the other part, which might even be a majority, which is the person who doesn't wanna think about it. They want it to be an easy thing that they can just put on and go and not have to think about. So, you know, for that type of person, yeah, uniform is amazing. Dacy Gillespie: And a uniform also doesn't necessarily have to be an exact two items. Like, it doesn't always have to be a black tee and jeans. It can be like, well, every day, I wear a crewneck sweater and a pair of wide leg pants, you know, or whatever the random thing is. And then you have options that you rotate in and out, but they all interchange and go together. And then there's gonna be people who are like, I'm bored by that. That is not fun for me. I would be just totally bored. And so for those people, it's not gonna work. Leah Kern: Yeah. It's interesting that you found that people can fall into sort of one of 2 camps. I definitely fall into that second camp. I'm like, let me just get dressed and move on with my life. But your work has made me think differently about clothes, and it's made me think about a lot of things. There's a couple of questions on your substack that really stuck out to me. Thinking about my listeners, I think this one is worth chatting about. How can someone get over the guilt buying new clothes due to body changes? Dacy Gillespie: Mhmm. Yeah. I love this question. Well, the first thing to do is to acknowledge that it is normal for bodies to change. I mean, almost every human woman body is going to change. I mean, between like, if I had the same body I had at 17, that would be super weird. You know? And we're all gonna go through periods of stress. We might go through childbirth. Dacy Gillespie: We might well, we're all gonna go through menopause. If we are lucky enough to live that long, our bodies, 99% of our bodies are going to change. And we can recognize that, but then we also have to look at the piece which is I've been taught the opposite of that. I've been taught that if my body changes, I need to put in a lot of work to change it back. And as we know, for many women, no amount of effort is going to change their body. It's genetics. It's systemic issues. And just starting to acknowledge that is the first step because otherwise, you'll think you don't deserve new clothes. Dacy Gillespie: Right? Because you'll think what I'm supposed to do is keep wearing those clothes, but I've gotta change my body to get back in those clothes. So if you can get to the point where you understand and can accept or be in some level of acceptance of the fact that bodies are meant to change. It's normal for bodies to change. Then you can just start to think about this as my body's gonna change. Like, imagine if we all just went into our life thinking, like, from childhood on. If we just went into our life thinking like, oh, my body's gonna go through puberty. My body's gonna change. I'm gonna need new clothes then. Dacy Gillespie: Or, you know, I move out on my own and I have a different lifestyle. My body's gonna change. I'm gonna need new clothes then. Oh, I'm going through a really stressful time at work. My body's trying to protect me. I'm gonna need new clothes now. But, again, you know what I mean? We're just not given that permission. But another thing that illustrates that that I want people to think about which is acceptable, is it is acceptable for babies and kids' bodies to change and for them to get new clothes every single year, if not more often. Dacy Gillespie: Right? We would never tell our 7 year old. No. No, bud. You gotta get back in those clothes you wore when you were 6. And it's just as natural. It's we have this idea that our bodies will change us to our children. And then once we hit what? 18? They stop changing? That makes no sense in biology. Anyway, so those are those are some things that I want people to think about. Dacy Gillespie: Like, really, you're depriving yourself, and we don't deprive children of clothes that fit. Do Do we deprive men of clothes that fit? No. If a man needs to buy new pants, he's just gonna go and buy the next couple sizes up. I mean, I'm generalizing here, but it's not as much of an emotional torment. Yeah. And then I think it's just really important to reiterate that buying clothes that fit is one of the almost only tangible things that you can do in your process of body acceptance, body neutrality, anything. Like, the most of it is in our mind. Right? Yeah. Dacy Gillespie: But if you buy clothes that fit, you are telling your body, I am gonna care for you. I'm gonna keep you safe. It's a physical thing that you can do to, like, create a sense of safety for your body. And then the last thing is, like, it feels really good to close that fit. Leah Kern: Oh, right. Dacy Gillespie: I mean, just think about when you're sitting in pants that are too tight. Like, it's again, this is where we prioritize fashion or flattering or something over our own physical comfort. And so if you just look at all of those things, I hope it makes you realize that, like, that's silly. Why would I squeeze myself into stuff that doesn't fit? You know, why would I think my body wouldn't change? And then allow yourself, you know, to buy some new clothes. And and it always comes up like, well, you know, what if I can't? Or and absolutely, I acknowledge the privilege involved in that, but it doesn't have to be a lot. You don't have to spend a lot of money. You can try, you know, if you're under a certain size, you can thrift things. But again, it's just making that little effort to take care of yourself that is is really gonna give you a message. Dacy Gillespie: You're gonna be, first of all, just, like, blown away by, like, oh, I can breathe. Oh, I can sit down. You know, all things that should be human rights. Leah Kern: Yeah. I think about too how if you're on an intuitive eating journey at the same time, which a lot of people are, body acceptance, intuitive eating go hand in hand. It's gonna be really hard to hear your body's cues if you're, like, just so uncomfortable and, like, pinched and shoved and, like, you're not gonna wanna drop into your body if you're feeling so uncomfortable in your body. And so much of intuitive eating work is about rebuilding trust. And like you said, like, buying clothes that fit are signaling to your body, like, hey. I respect you. I'm also I'm with you here and now. I'm not saying, like, oh, your life starts later when you fit these pants. Leah Kern: And, like, what does that say to your body? If, like, you're not worth it now, but, like, only when you achieve a certain size or weight, then we'll start to respect you. And that does a lot of damage to your baseline foundation of trust and respect with yourself. Dacy Gillespie: Yeah. And that awareness. That's something that I think about all the time that interoception, I think it is where you're Yeah. You know, kinda feeling things in your body. And women have been taught to ignore signs and signals from their body, you know, throughout their lives. Your friend who's a teacher, she probably can't go pee when she needs to go pee. Oh, yeah. You know? Like, hunger cues, obviously, we a lot of us have tried to ignore those. Dacy Gillespie: And especially, like, comfort from our clothes, you know, like, we've come to ignore the tight waistband. We've come to ignore the pain in our feet when we wear heels. And, yeah, I do feel like those two things are so connected that that awareness for intuitive eating can be helped by practicing it in this way. Leah Kern: For the person who's listening to this and is like, I dread getting dressed. My closet becomes tsunami. Like, I just tear it apart, and it's, like, mental breakdown territory just, like, so distressful and emotionally charged every morning or whenever it is, going out at night. Where do you recommend starting? Dacy Gillespie: It might seem a little bit up the stream, but you have to start with figuring out what your personal style is. Because that person, this fictional person that you're describing, I can tell you without knowing who they are, without knowing anything about them, that 90, 95% of their closet is stuff they actually don't really like. It's stuff that they're don't really like. It's stuff that they're uncomfortable in. It's stuff that doesn't work for their lifestyle. And they have just been made to think they can make it work or they bought things on that, you know, kind of, like, foggy brain. Like, I just need something now. But, again, you can't know what to get rid of until you have a sense of what you like. Dacy Gillespie: And that takes a lot of work. And so, again, like, this is not a fast thing, an overnight thing. This takes mindfulness. It takes some awareness. So, yeah, honestly, that's where I'd start. Leah Kern: Yeah. When you said, like, for those people, often, they don't like 90 to 95% of the things in their closet, It made me think too about a parallel with the work I do with food. When we're talking about honoring your hunger, they're like, I don't know what to eat. It's like, yeah. You don't like anything that you've bought because you bought everything that you think you're supposed to eat. Freaking kale and bee pollen and all these, like, obscure health foods and no. Like, what about we get some goldfish in the house or, like, something, like, that's actually enjoyable? I don't know why goldfish just came to me. It's just another parallel that came to my mind. Dacy Gillespie: Yeah. Yeah. I know. I I'm glad you said that because that is the absolute, like, foundation of all of that is you have been buying things you think you should wear. That's where it goes off the tracks. Leah Kern: Yeah. So much good stuff in here. I could talk to you for longer, but I wanna be mindful of time. I have a few wrap up questions that I ask everyone. I usually ask folks who come on about their biggest diet culture pet peeve. But I think for you, it'd be interesting to ask about your biggest fashion culture pet peeve. Dacy Gillespie: Oh, god. How to pick 1? Well, at the moment, I'm just really irritated at the whole, like, again, since watching these queer eye episodes. There's just so much focus on, quote, defining your waist. And it's just like, these body proportions as ideal were set 100 of years ago by, you know, if you read Sabrina Strings where Yeah. You know, all the Europeans trying to distinguish themselves from the Africans who were being taken their slaves. Tangent. But but, yeah, this whole idea of, like, defining the ways. Like, if we look you know, sometimes you'll see people posting on in the anti diet world on social media about these kind of, like, prehistoric sculptures Mhmm. Dacy Gillespie: Of bodies, you know, and their round bodies. And actually have, like, something sitting right here that's like just a body with a belly, you know. And so, yeah, that's really bugging me right now because some people don't have a waist. And guess what? They're fine. Yeah. And also, like, that might be uncomfortable for you. It might not be your style. I personally love oversized baggy clothes. Dacy Gillespie: I could care less about defining my waist. That's what I'm gonna go with. Leah Kern: That's a good one. The other question I like to ask everyone is we're talking about rejecting diet culture, rejecting fashion culture, and instead going inwards to what do I like? What do I wanna eat? What do I wanna wear? And that comes from our own intuition. And I think the word intuition is such a loaded word. So I'd love to ask people, what does intuition mean to you, and how do you experience it? Dacy Gillespie: That's such a really good question because I think that's been kind of the journey I've been on for the last 10 years is, yeah, just really trying to listen to that voice. And I will say, sometimes it's too much pressure. Like, I will say there are certain times that people's inner voices are just not speaking. You know? And I am not able to, like, sit down and journal words that are coming through me, you know. That's that just doesn't happen for me. But I do really think that we have gut feelings about a lot of things. And that, again, with clothes, like, when I'm helping someone edit their closet, people think they're like, oh, what question do you ask yourself about each garment? I'm like, the first thing I ask is, do you like this? Leah Kern: Mhmm. Dacy Gillespie: And what usually happens is the person says, well, my mom said I should get it, or well, that color was in style, or but, you know, whatever. There's always a qualification. I'm like, do you like it? So the yeah. That tapping into that is really important. Leah Kern: Yeah. Yeah. And I appreciate the, like, realness of, like, you know, sometimes I don't just sit down and journal and, like, this voice comes through me. Like, it I think that that's how it can seem on social media or aspirational, like, just so in tune. And sometimes anxiety is loud or other big emotions, and it's just like, I'm not hearing my my little voice inside right now. Yeah. Is there anything else we miss or anything else on your heart you're feeling called to share? Dacy Gillespie: I think you got it all out. Honestly, that was a lot. It feels like I spewed a lot of words, but hopefully it was helpful. Leah Kern: No, you did. It's so much good stuff. And I have questions I didn't even ask you on here, so maybe another time. Where can someone find you to stay connected and learn more about your work? Dacy Gillespie: So my website is, one of the best places. It's mindful closet dotcom, and then you can learn about working 1 on 1 through that site. I also have a group program called Making Space, and that website is making space course dot com. And, you know, I'm pretty active on Instagram at mindful closet. Leah Kern: Awesome. Thanks so much, Stacey. It was so wonderful chatting. Thanks for having me. Leah Kern: Thanks so much for tuning into this week's episode of shoulders down. If you enjoyed the episode, if it inspired you or if you learned something, consider sharing it with someone to help spread the anti diet message. A special thanks to Softer Sounds for producing the podcast and making these conversations sound as beautiful as they feel. For more intuitive eating and body image support, visit leokernrd.com and check out the blog and our free resources. To stay in tune with me and what's happening in my business and personal life, subscribe to my newsletter at leokeurnrd.com/newsletter. Leah Kern: Thanks for listening. Talk to you soon.