Tory Stroker: "I thought that if I did the, quote unquote, right things that I could make my anxiety better. And so much of that, I think, was originated from wellness culture." Leah Kern [00:00:08]: Welcome to shoulders down. A podcast for truth seekers who want to heal their relationships with food and body. I'm your host, Leah Kern, and I'm an anti-diet dietitian, certified intuitive eating counselor, and fellow truth seeker with personal experience navigating disordered eating. In this podcast, you'll learn to harness your body's innate wisdom to govern not just how you eat, but also how you live. It's my mission to help you heal your with food and body, so you can live your most aligned and fulfilling life. Welcome, and I'm so glad that you're here. Hello, and welcome back to another episode of shoulders down. Today, I have one of my dear dietitian friends on the podcast, Tory Stroker, and it's a bit of a different vibe of an episode. Leah Kern [00:00:56]: Today is an episode where we're kind of like both the hosts and both the guests, because Tory and I are pretty close pals. We are able to do this kind of episode. And I ask her some questions. She asked me some questions, and you'll get to hear from both of us without that feeling of, like, one person's the host and the other person's on the hot seat. It's sort of a more even interview in that sense. I guess we're both being interviewed. So the topic of today's episode is about mental health, specifically anxiety. So I have been someone who navigates anxiety for several years and it's a big part of my story. Leah Kern [00:01:37]: It's also a big part of Tory's story. And we decided to do this episode because there's a lot of overlaps between diet culture, disordered eating, and anxiety. And we wanted to explore that a little bit. In this episode, you'll hear from both me and Tory on our background with our mental health journeys, what we heard that we should be doing to cure our anxiety. We talk about our triggers. We talk about our lowest points struggling with anxiety. We also talk about the intersection of wellness, culture, and mental health. And we talk about some of our biggest pet peeves around wellness, culture, and mental health. Leah Kern [00:02:18]: We talk about taking anxiety medication, what that journey was like, what some of the fears and hesitations were, what are the things we've gained from that tool. We also cover more, but those are some of the big hits. So this episode means a lot to me. It also is one of the ones that feels a bit more vulnerable because I don't often share this much about my mental health and anxiety, but it it certainly feels aligned in the sense that I have gotten so much from hearing other people share their sToryes, and it's been a big part of my own healing journey. So I wanna be able to pay that forward. Also, if you wanna hear, like, a little bit of a different angle on my journey with anxiety, I was on Christy Harrison's podcast, Rethinking Wellness, and we cover this topic too, but with a bit of a different angle. So I will link to my episode on rethinking wellness in the show notes. So I'm gonna give you a little bit more background on Tory and then we will dive right into today's episode. Leah Kern [00:03:19]: Tory Stroker is an anti diet registered dietitian and certified intuitive eating counselor. She's the founder of Tory Soaker Nutrition, a virtual private practice out of New Jersey. Tory specializes in disordered eating recovery and body image work for women. Tory uses an intuitive eating and health at every size approach to support her clients through healing their relationships with food and body. Welcome back to the podcast, Tory. You're our second repeat guest. So I'm so excited to have you. Tory Stroker [00:03:50]: I am so thrilled to be here with you, Leah. This is, like, such an honor, and, you know, I'm such a fan of yours. Leah Kern [00:03:57]: And at the time that you came on, you were, like, one of our first guest interviews on shoulders down. And I feel like our relationship has grown so much since that time, so this will be fun, like, just even more comfy vibe. Tory Stroker [00:04:11]: Yes. Totally. And, you know, in different life stages and have grown in in my own self since I know you have as well. So we're evolving together. Leah Kern [00:04:21]: Yeah. I take anxiety medication now. So that's fun. Okay. So speaking of anxiety medication, we're gonna talk about mental health today, specifically anxiety. This is gonna come out in May, and it's in honor of Mental Health Awareness Month. So we're gonna do a little kinda, like, popcorning where we're gonna ask each other some questions, and we're both gonna answer them. So today, we're both the hosts, and we're both the guests. Leah Kern [00:04:49]: Oh, also, if you wanna know more about Tory's story with her relationship with Food and Body, I'll link in the show notes to that episode because that's usually the first question I ask. But for this episode, we're just gonna focus on mental health and, specifically, anxiety. Tory Stroker [00:05:02]: One of our favorite topics, Leah. Leah Kern [00:05:05]: Yes. Absolutely. Tell us about your mental health journey. Tory Stroker [00:05:12]: Let's just open it up with that. Right? Leah Kern [00:05:14]: Yeah. Tory Stroker [00:05:15]: Okay. So, you know, looking back, I feel like I probably had low level anxiety, like, throughout my childhood. Like, I think back to certain memories and I'm like, that was probably anxiety, but I think it's so different now than it was then when we were younger where it gets really identified now with young children. And when I was younger, it was just personality. Right? It was like, she's shy, she's nervous, introverted, things like that. So I think that there was definitely some low level anxiety, you know, never hindering things completely, but there was a tone of that probably. And then in my junior year of college, I got into a pretty traumatic car accident and that was probably in the winter. That summer, I had my first panic attack and was one of the scariest experiences of my life because I thought I was dying. Tory Stroker [00:06:16]: I had no idea what was happening. I was actually visiting my now husband, then boyfriend's family in another country, And it was so scary. Panic attacks are something I would never wish on anyone. They're awful. And from there, I would say my anxiety really became so heightened. And I lived like that for about 7 years before I took a different direction and changed things for myself. So that's sort of like my back story on my own personal anxiety. What about you? Like, what's your journey been like with mental health? Leah Kern [00:06:59]: I'm remembering too before I I dive in. Wasn't it, like, your wedding coming up that was the thing for you as, like, the catalyst of, oh, I wanna enjoy this day and not feel anxious? Tory Stroker [00:07:10]: I mean, I felt like my therapist had suggested medication many times for me, and I was so resistant to it for multiple reasons. And it wasn't till I, like, had this really big life moment coming up, being my wedding, that I was like, I want to be present for this. That was one of the biggest differences. Like, when my anxiety was bad, I felt like a shell of myself. I really couldn't enjoy things. And this was too important to me and I didn't wanna miss it. And so free my wedding, I started medication for the first time, and that really has changed my life. Leah Kern [00:07:55]: Yeah. And we'll talk more about, like, the hesitations in going into starting medication. I resonate with a lot of what you said. Definitely, the piece about low level anxiety as a child, and it kind of just being brushed off as, like, she's shy. That's her personality. I actually recently listened to a podcast episode about I think it was titled The Kids Aren't Alright, and it was about, maybe I'll link it in the show notes, kids being overtherapized. And I think about that, like, would I have wanted to be sent to a therapist for my behaviors displaying anxiety? I don't even know because then it maybe would have grown into something even bigger and but maybe it would have been validating. I'll never know. Leah Kern [00:08:32]: But anyway, I have lots of memories of, like, I grew up in a suburb of New York City like you. And I remember, like, really not liking going into the city. I thought the buildings were gonna fall on me. All of the people scared me. And I remember, like, counting my siblings and my parents to make sure, like, we didn't lose anyone. I had, like, major self soothing behaviors that I still have, like, a truly uncanny attachment to my childhood dolls. So, yeah, my twin brother was also kinda anxious, so I think we sort of, like, fed off of each other because it was like, oh, you seem anxious. I'm anxious too because you're my brother, and you're scared of that. Leah Kern [00:09:10]: So I think I am too, and vice versa. And I think in college and, like, late high school, my anxiety really, like, had, like, almost like a host, as if it was like a parasite in disordered eating. And that kinda masked it for a while because it gave the illusion of control. But then after doing work on my relationship with food, it kind of took host in starting my business. I channeled a lot of it into that because it was something really tangible. And then after that, it had nowhere really to go, and it was just, like, bubbling up and really came to, like, a head in the last, like, 3 years, I would say, which led me to my own journey to ultimately start medication as well. And you were a big part of that. I know I've told you that several times. Leah Kern [00:10:01]: But, yeah, I wanna get into the piece about, like, what did you hear that you should be doing to cure your anxiety, sort of like the wellness culture y things. Tory Stroker [00:10:13]: Yeah. One thing before we continue that you're saying that I think is really interesting is when I've never really thought about this before, but when someone else in your family lives with anxiety, how it is normalized, and especially if it's a parental figure and that's like kind of there's role modeling there and that is like sort of a part of the environment, I would say. And, you know, I've never really thought about that before. You said that about your brother, and I think that there is definitely a possibility for, like, a pattern in that. And just interesting that you say that. Leah Kern [00:10:49]: I wanted to share a really quick story. Before me and Al drove out to California to move here, we were in Georgia visiting my parents. Mom, if you're listening, I love you. I just have to tell the story. We me and Al were making brownies, and my was, like, on the couch in the other room watching something. And you know how when the oven first turns on, sometimes there's that, like, burnt smell? So me and I put the brownies in the oven, and we're sitting on the couch with my mom watching. And she, like, maybe doesn't know that we're making brownies or or just, like, forgot or whatever. And all of a sudden, she goes, what's that smell? What's that smell? And she starts, like, freaking out. Leah Kern [00:11:23]: And I just had such a moment of like, oh my god. I do that exact thing. I think the house is on fire or, like, you know, if I'm driving and I smell, like, a burnt smell, I think the car is gonna combust. Tory Stroker [00:11:34]: There's, like, paranoia around it. That's the way it manifests for you? Leah Kern [00:11:38]: Yeah. And just, like, jumping right there and seeing, like, that was always just, like yeah. That's just like how my mom is, and I love her. And like you're saying, it was so modeled. It's like, that's normal. Tory Stroker [00:11:48]: I know. Like, no none of the women in my family can watch, like, slightly scary movies or TV shows. And that's not, I don't think, completely normal. But, like, the physical anxiety that we have around that is, like, too much to handle. So, yeah, it's so interesting, like, the patterns and the familial piece to this as well. So I feel like coming back to your question about, like, the what I heard or, like, what some of the pressures were around quote unquote curing my anxiety from wellness culture. So I feel like I have to say that the timing of this was interesting because this was when I was in grad school becoming a dietitian that my anxiety was really skyrocketing. And also my eating disorder and orthorexia were very much in the the threads of what was happening for me at that time. Tory Stroker [00:12:48]: But I feel like I thought and I believed that if I did the quote unquote right things that I could make my anxiety better. And so much of that, I think, was originated from wellness culture. Things like doing Headspace app every day, having essential oils. I, like, had bought a diffuser and had all different essential oils going in my house. Going to yoga, I remember being like, I have to go to yoga to make my anxiety better. And then, you know, one of my personal favorites now is like eating the right way to beat your anxiety, which just if you could see me now, I have the biggest eye roll about and is one of the my biggest pet peeves around this conversation because it's so elitist. And, like, I think what I realized is when your anxiety is so high, you can do these things, and they're still not going to shift your anxiety in a way that you're previous conversation, but she talked about anxiety, I think I told you this in a previous conversation, but she talked about anxiety on a scale of, like, 1 to 10 and pinpointing, like, where are you right now on the scale? And this is one scale I'm okay with. And it's, like, on a daily basis, I was living in, like, an 8, 9. Tory Stroker [00:14:23]: And she said, like, you know, you're doing these things, these, like, quote unquote lifestyle things, and that might shift your anxiety to like a 7 or an 8a half, but it's not gonna give you that shift to, like, a 2 or a 3 that you're looking for. But if you live with, if you're maybe on a scale of, like, and you're feeling more of, like, a 3, those things are great. Right? But they weren't what I needed to really shift my anxiety and to bring my nervous system back down to a safety place. Leah Kern [00:15:04]: Yeah. Then there's, like, that shame of, like, well, I'm doing all the things and, like, why can't I fix this myself? What's wrong with me? Tory Stroker [00:15:12]: And, also, I don't know if you felt like this. There was another piece of, like, but I'm a dietitian. Like, now I say it out loud and I don't it doesn't even really make sense to me. But I really believed that. I was like, I'm a dietitian. I'm in this space, and I should be able to make this better. Like, what's wrong with you, Tory? Like, why can't you do this? Yeah. Leah Kern [00:15:37]: It's so characteristic of wellness culture and, like, the greater umbrella of diet culture of personal responsibility of, like, why can't you just figure out your weight or your health completely ignoring other factors that are not in our immediate control, whether that's genetics or your history of trauma or social determinants of health. And no amount of lavender oil or the Calm app or Superfoods is really gonna move the needle for some people, like you're saying, if you're, like, higher on that scale. For me, it was a lot of, like, what I internalized was less like the yoga lavender essential oil piece and more food and exercise. Like, it was more if you're eating whole foods and your body will be in harmony and, like, high vibrational. I was sort of on this path that was, like, spiritual, crunchy granola, hippie girl, like, flavor. Tory Stroker [00:16:36]: Was this when you were you were up in Vermont? Leah Kern [00:16:38]: Yeah. I mean, it was all throughout and, right, like, that stayed with me that, like, part of my identity. But specifically in high school, when I was, like, trying to find myself, I was on Pinterest and Tumblr and seeing people, like, post these things they called Buddha bowls. And it was, like, very much this display of, like, this aspirational, like, serene life. And it wasn't so overt of, like, if you eat like this, you also feel like this. But it certainly would I internalize. And then a lot of thoughts around if I was exercising enough, I wouldn't have this, like, stuck energy, like, this kind of thought. Tory Stroker [00:17:13]: Don't you feel like it would have been so powerful to hear someone say, you might not have control over your anxiety. Leah Kern [00:17:20]: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like, exactly, like, for someone to record this episode that we're recording right now. Tory Stroker [00:17:27]: Yeah. Yes. Leah Kern [00:17:29]: So I don't have so much to add, but I think, in general, I relate to the experience of, like, this is my fault. I should know how to fix this, and I shouldn't need medication. Medication in my brain was like, why can't you just do it, quote, unquote, naturally? And, like Tory Stroker [00:17:45]: Yeah. Yeah. Leah Kern [00:17:46]: What's wrong with you that you, like, need this, like, crutch? It's like a shortcut kinda thing. Tory Stroker [00:17:51]: Yeah. So much stigmatization around medication that is still so so loud. Did you feel alone in your anxiety and, like, shame to keep it hidden? Leah Kern [00:18:04]: It depend that's a good question. It really depends on the setting. With certain people, absolutely. Like, I felt like I just have to play it cool, and that would only make it worse. Because then it's like, I'm anxious. And do they know that I'm anxious? And can they see that I'm anxious? What helps me so much is and I think in more recent years, like, I spend more and more time with the people that I feel my most comfortable with. So that's why I kind of paused with that question. And those are the people who I'm like, okay. Leah Kern [00:18:30]: I'm feeling a little anxious right now. Like, I will tell them everything that's going on in terms of, like, a pulse on my anxiety. But I know you and I have talked about that, like, sharing with a partner and how it helps to kind of lose some steam. What about you? Tory Stroker [00:18:44]: Oh my god. I felt so alone. I felt like no one I didn't know anyone who spoke about their anxiety openly. I, like, had a few personal relationships of people older than me who I, like, had heard sprinkles of, like, oh, they take medication, but, like, never anyone open and honest and just raw about, like, yeah, I live with anxiety. Anxiety is a part of my life. It doesn't define me. I take medication, especially like going into a phase of starting motherhood. No one, no one I heard spoke about it. Tory Stroker [00:19:25]: If anything, I feel like I heard more on the Internet and social media about people getting off of medication or, like, like, kind of still reinforcing the negative narrative about medication. But, yeah, I feel like that was so important to me as I became more and more confident and more sort of grounded in my own journey was to speak to the experience that I had had and to be open. I feel like that has been now some like, one of the things that I like to speak to the most is, like, living with anxiety and the intersection of anxiety and disordered eating and eating disorders and just, like, normalizing medication. Leah Kern [00:20:11]: And the ripple effects are massive. Like, I remember seeing you post, and and it was, like, the orange medication bottle, and your finger was over your, like, personal details on the label. And it was, like, you holding it out in front of the mirror. And you wrote about anxiety and taking medication and how helpful it was for you. And in my own journey, like, that was swirling in my brain of, like, okay. Well, I really respect Tory, and Tory is also a dietitian. We're we have similar. We're both in private practice and all this stuff. Leah Kern [00:20:42]: I'm like and she she's on medication. So, like, okay. Like, those sToryes helped give me permission. And, yeah, that's, like, one of those images that's, like, seared into my brain and is so powerful. Right? Like, when we share about things, the stigma sort of just, like it doesn't go away, but it definitely helps to kind of, like, melt it a little. Tory Stroker [00:21:02]: 100%. Yeah. It's so funny to me that that image is still so, like, clear for you because that one is years ago now. Leah Kern [00:21:09]: Because you know what it is? Your brand colors are like orange and and, like, the bottle was orange. And so it was just like so, like, poignant for me. Tory Stroker [00:21:18]: I remember my sister being like, how do you feel? Like, are you okay after sharing that? And I was like, I feel totally fine. It was something that I had begun becoming more honest about in my real life. So when I chose to share it on social media, it didn't feel as scary or as vulnerable. And I just heard from so many people how powerful it was. Yeah. Leah Kern [00:21:41]: Yeah. Something that I guess I I did feel more alone in was the specific things that triggered my anxiety. There was a point in my journey where I was really wanting to know, like, am I crazy? Do other people have these, like, really specific triggers? So I think it would be helpful to chat about what types of things trigger your anxiety. Tory Stroker [00:22:02]: When you struggle with anxiety and you hear about other triggers, it is so helpful. Like, other people's triggers, it feels like, I guess, like, I'm not alone and I'm not quote, unquote crazy and, like, oh my god. Other people especially if you share a trigger. Like, it feels like pumping together, there's community in that. For sure, like, one for me that's been really big was is driving in a car. And I know you you shared that one too. Me personally driving, me being in the passenger seat of the car, like, in a car, without a doubt, super triggering and activating for me. Flying on a plane is one that I have really struggled with, especially if there are turbulence, in general, feeling out of control. Tory Stroker [00:22:53]: Right? So there's that same theme of being in a car because you are not in full control of the situation. Flying in a plane, I'm not the one flying the plane. Leah Kern [00:23:04]: So wouldn't it be nice if you were? Tory Stroker [00:23:07]: Yeah. I mean, I'm not sure if it would help my anxiety. In my mind, I guess I think it would, but the reality of that is probably not. And I know, like, these are all the sense of control. Right? It's not the reality. But, yeah, that for me because I think that's sort of the origin in my story of when this all started was when I felt like I couldn't trust the world anymore. Like, I didn't have control over what was happening and that everything kind of cascaded from there. What about you? Leah Kern [00:23:42]: For me, it's this feeling of being stuck and, like, far from help. So that could manifest in, like, being on a highway where, like and it's funny. My therapist would say, it's funny. You've driven cross country three times, and you go on these long hiking trips where you very much are far from hell. Sometimes, like, in the middle of the country when you see, like, a sign, and it's like, last exit for 50 miles or something like that spooks my brain. Cause I'm like, well, what if I needed something and, like, there was no place to go and get it? Or what if something, like, happens and we're far from, like, a hospital or something? And then, yeah, hiking trips. I do these backpacking trips. And, yeah, sometimes you really are, like, 10, 12, 15, 20 miles on foot from the next out point. Leah Kern [00:24:31]: And my brain is like, woah. It doesn't like that, yet I somehow have found it to be part of my story to, like, do those things. And it sometimes that results in feeling like I pushed myself too far and, like, having really intense acute anxiety in those experiences. And 2 of my best friends who I go on these trips with could attest to it. It's, like, pretty wild and out of body. But this summer, we're doing another section in of the Appalachian Trail, and I'm hoping it'll be my first time doing it with medication. I'm hoping it just allows me to enjoy it a little more. But, yeah, like, I remember once in college being at, like, festival or, like, a music show or something, which, like, oh my god. Leah Kern [00:25:12]: Looking back, like, my worst nightmare. And I was, like, really deep in the crowd. Tory Stroker [00:25:16]: Yeah. Leah Kern [00:25:17]: And I was just, like, I need to get out and, like, feel the edge. Like, it's I don't like to feel trapped. Tory Stroker [00:25:22]: Yeah. I resonate with that. Like, even, like, this is but that kind of claustrophobic feeling, yeah, that could spiral me too. Leah Kern [00:25:32]: Yeah. Tory Stroker [00:25:32]: It's not like my number one, but if I was in a head space where I was, like, a little vulnerable to it, I could see myself, like, really struggling in that as well. Leah Kern [00:25:42]: And then one other, like, main category for me is, like and I think this is common. This is, like, the one that I feel, like, less is, like, less niche is body sensations. Like, I feel like I'm, like, really tuned into my body, and sometimes I'm like, should my heart be beating that fast? Like, I think it just skipped a beat and, like, I don't know. Like, I have this little feeling in my stomach and, like, does that mean that I'm gonna throw up and then I'll be this and then that and I'll be far from a hospital. And then it kind of all plays in. Tory Stroker [00:26:05]: You're not alone in that. I have worked with clients who also have that medical anxiety in, like, physical sensations. So that is not a you thing, 100%. I have heard that. It's not something personally that I navigate with, but, like, it's something I have heard for sure. Leah Kern [00:26:25]: Totally. I've talked to other people with that one. And what would you say was the lowest point for you in your story with your anxiety? Tory Stroker [00:26:35]: I have this memory of I don't remember exactly what year it was, but I remember being down at my aunt and uncle's beach house and down in Long Beach Island. And I was there for the weekend and my anxiety was sort of like simmering, bubbling the whole time. And I had told someone and they had given me melatonin to sleep because I wasn't sleeping. And I took this melatonin. I remember I was in a bunk bed, like, at their house, which is also, like, claustrophobic, you know, doesn't really feel great. And I remember fighting the melatonin. Like, the melatonin was making me sleepy and that was making me feel out of control and so I was fighting it. And it was awful. Tory Stroker [00:27:28]: And then, like, my anxiety was growing, growing. I remember it was the middle of the night. I was pacing up and down the street and it was low. And I it's so interesting because I also look back and there was, like, a couple pictures from that weekend and I look sick in that moment. Yeah. I don't think that because it was also, like, I looked a certain way that was identified as, like, you know, what you might think is, like, healthy. Like, I was really small and I was, you know, in school to be a dietitian and eating healthy and all these things, but I was struggling internally so much. Like, you said something before about being a shell of yourself or, like, being a shell in your body. Tory Stroker [00:28:13]: And that, I think, those moments I look back and I'm like, I don't have any positive memories from that weekend. Like, I have no sToryes I could tell. I wasn't at all grounded and connecting with people. I was just this shell. Leah Kern [00:28:30]: Yeah. Fighting for your life, trying to keep your head above water. Yeah. Tory Stroker [00:28:33]: Now because my anxiety is so much better, when I struggle with high anxiety, it's so exhausting, physically exhausting the next day. I'm totally wiped. And that wasn't something I realized when it was so bad. Living in this state of fight or flight, really what it was doing to my body. Yeah. But that was awful. But, yeah, like, the the kind of looking back and realizing, like, I don't really remember anything about that weekend beyond hellish it was for me in my head. That's I feel like a low point. Tory Stroker [00:29:11]: Right? I'm like, you're not actually living your life. You're in this, like, prison. Leah Kern [00:29:16]: And it's so parallel with if you're listening to this podcast and you've never struggled with anxiety, but you've struggled with your relationship with food, maybe you can relate to that feeling of like, okay. I was away on this trip or at a family beach house or whatever it is, and I don't remember the trip. I just remember counting calories, plotting when I would work out next or whatever, and how it it just consumes you. Tory Stroker [00:29:36]: And I think what's really interesting that you mentioned earlier is the sort of, like, enmeshment between disordered eating, eating disorders, and anxiety. And so when anxiety for me also would get high, I would really lean into my evening disorder and orthorexia as a way to feel in control. And I remember finally seeing a dietitian and she was like, we gotta get your anxiety under control because we're never gonna be able to make progress in your relationship with food if your anxiety is this high. And that was sort of an moment for Leah Kern [00:30:12]: me. Yeah. Yeah. Because you're just, like, trying to grab on to any semblance of control, and that's when you can grab on to controlling food. Tory Stroker [00:30:20]: Yeah. And your body. Leah Kern [00:30:22]: Right. Yeah. Tory Stroker [00:30:23]: What do you feel like? Because I feel like yours was probably a bit more recent. Leah Kern [00:30:26]: Like, so recent. Tory Stroker [00:30:28]: Yeah. What was your, like, kind of breaking point of, like, I don't wanna live like this anymore? Leah Kern [00:30:34]: Yeah. For me, it was last summer. So I think it was in July. Yeah. It was in July of 2023. I was on one of these annual hiking trips with 2 of my best friends, and it was a combination of a lot of factors. We were doing our trip on the West Coast last summer, and I feel more comfortable hiking on the East Coast. I just feel, like, more familiar with the elements and the trails. Leah Kern [00:31:01]: And, like, the hiking community. It just feels, like, warmer. I also had a pretty scary experience hiking on the West Coast a few summers ago with a friend. We woke up in our tent in the middle of the night surrounded by smoke. There was a wildfire and we had to, like, hike down in headlamps in the middle of the night. So my brain just kind of goes to, like, the West Coast is a whole different beast. Tory Stroker [00:31:23]: And that, like, worst case scenario Leah Kern [00:31:26]: Oh, god. Tory Stroker [00:31:26]: That's that's a trademark of my anxiety. Leah Kern [00:31:29]: Yeah. Tory Stroker [00:31:29]: We love Leah Kern [00:31:30]: Yeah. Tory Stroker [00:31:31]: Worst case scenario. We go right there. Leah Kern [00:31:33]: And when it actually happens, it takes so much to Oh. To move forward and be like, oh my god. Like, what Tory Stroker [00:31:39]: if it's all true? That's like what happened for me and with my car accident. Like, it was the worst possible circumstance I never could have dreamed of happening happening. Leah Kern [00:31:49]: Yeah. So it was West Coast. It was a heat wave, which freaks me out because like, what if I faint and we're in the woods? Some hiking trails have like some service, but this one, we were in Big Sur, there was no service. It also wasn't like like a through hike, like a a point a to point b. It was an out and back. So we went a certain amount of miles in and then retraced and went back. And that also spooked me because it was like, we're just getting deeper and deeper, and we're not getting closer and closer to the out. Tory Stroker [00:32:22]: Yeah. It sounds like a perfect storm for you. Leah Kern [00:32:24]: It was a perfect storm. And, yeah, the first night, I just it's honestly really kind of almost getting hard to remember, like, the exact state because it was, like, the kind of thing where I I don't think my brain wants to store it. But we got to, like, where we were camping the first night. And once, like, the task of getting there was over, it just came, like, rushing in. And my body was just in overdrive. Like, I was shaking. I it was really, really hard for me to eat dinner, which made me really anxious because then I can't have fuel, and then that's not good. And my friends were amazing. Leah Kern [00:32:56]: And I knew I was going to keep going because I knew it would get better. And it was also just gonna be like a logistical nightmare to get out, and, like, we all shared gear. And it was gonna, like, mean that my other friend my friends couldn't do the hike. And but I said to them, I was like, I know I will come out of this in a few days when we're out of the woods and totally underplay this. Do not let me forget how intense this was because I can't keep doing this where I'm like, oh, it's fine. And then there's the next height in time. Tory Stroker [00:33:27]: I remember you telling me that, Lydia. Like that, we're friends remind me of how bad this was. Because I I totally resonate with that. Like, when you're out of it, it's hard to recall and it probably is like a body not wanting to store sort of thing, but it's it's hard to remember how bad it was. Leah Kern [00:33:45]: Yeah. Tory Stroker [00:33:45]: So I think it's really interesting and and really brave of you to have done that. Leah Kern [00:33:49]: Yeah. We had such a nice conversation, and I felt so connected to them. And and they're both, like, really 2 of the least anxious people I know, which is just interesting. And I know it's scary for them, but at the same time, like, I don't know. It it's a different experience than being with someone who I feel like really understands it because I have to try to communicate it more. And also it's kinda nice because they don't feed into it in a way because they're so not anxious, so it kind of, like, balances it out. But, anyway, that was definitely the lowest point for me. I came back, and I started medication a few weeks after that. Tory Stroker [00:34:21]: Amazing. Like, what was your thought process around starting to take the medication? Was there hesitation for you around that Or did you feel pretty open about it? Leah Kern [00:34:33]: Totally, there was. I was scared that I wasn't gonna be like myself. I was scared of feeling out of control. Like, a drug's gonna change me. And the reality is, even I have not said this, really, to many people, I know you and I have talked about it off air, I was scared of gaining weight. And that is so hard to say because this is the work we do, and I know it's my own internalized anti fat bias. And I'm kind of almost grateful that I was, like, faced with that because I think it was a useful moment of keeping me connected to this work and not being, like, so far evolved that I never think about any of this. And so I really had to work through that. Leah Kern [00:35:18]: And I'm not, like, really entirely sure if I did or didn't because I don't weigh myself. But, I mean, that was certainly a hard one to swallow. What about you? Tory Stroker [00:35:29]: Oh, I wanted to ask you first is, like, how did you work through that? Like, what was that like for you? Leah Kern [00:35:35]: Oh, gosh. I thought to myself, well, if I do gain weight, like, I am still myself. And the benefit of how this medication can make me feel like I owe that to myself, and body changes are really not to dismiss them and kind of diminish how hard they can be. I was like, you know what? It's a drop in the bucket compared to living in a heightened state like this. And so I kind of just, like, reasoned with myself that this is important to try. And even if my body does change, I'm still me, just like I teach all my clients. Like, the vessel your body's just the vessel. Like, the the contents inside stay the same. Leah Kern [00:36:22]: And I'm still loved. And I kinda was like, I will figure it out, like, because I just needed to try. What about you? Tory Stroker [00:36:35]: I relate to so much of that. I was I mean, I as I said, like, I lived in this hellish state for about 7 years with suggestions to try medication, but I was so resistant. And I went to 3 different psychiatrists and something I wanted to mention is how much weight stigma can also be a part of the conversation around starting medication. And I remember seeing this psychiatrist. I'm not saying as a whole and like not every psychiatrist, but in my experience that it was definitely a part of the conversation. I remember seeing this one psychiatrist in New York City and sharing with him that I was in recovery from an eating disorder and was afraid around gaining weight. And he was like he gave suggestions that were super triggering. He was like, well, just continue eating healthy and exercising regularly. Tory Stroker [00:37:37]: Like, I don't know what we have to do to get in medical professionals' minds that if you have an eating disorder, those suggestions are triggering. Leah Kern [00:37:46]: Yes. And even if you don't, even if you don't even if it's not at that, like, acute level, like, they're triggering and unhelpful. Tory Stroker [00:37:54]: So unhelpful. But, like, that that fear of weight gain, that fear of not being me anymore, which now I look back at and I'm like, girl, you weren't you for 7 years. Like, now you are you because of the help of medication. And I'm like, why I wish I didn't wait so long. Like, I wish I didn't resist it for as long as I did. There was also a lot like, I grew up with definitely a tone of medication is bad. And so that was part of, like, my belief system, like, taking medication, as you said before, like a crutch or is a bad thing or is toxic or whatever. And part of my story also has been, like, the stigma of staying on a medication and that, like and it's kinda like the intuitive eating thing. Tory Stroker [00:38:51]: Like, it's okay if I'm on this medication for now, but I need to get off of it eventually. Like, I can't stay on it forever, kind of like when we do the work around intuitive eating, like, it's okay that I'm not focused my weight loss or my weight for now, but, like, eventually I'm gonna need to. Leah Kern [00:39:07]: That, like, back burner thing. Tory Stroker [00:39:09]: Yeah. Yeah. And funny story, like, I I remember driving and I was on the phone with my psychiatrist and I was pregnant at the time and I continued being on medication during my pregnancy, which I also wanna normalize. And, obviously, that's a big decision that you need to make alongside of your medical providers, but that was a decision and the choice that was best for me. And I remember talking to my psychiatrist and she was like, consider I was like, is there any way, like I'm feeling really good on this medication. Like, could I go down or, you know, like maybe I don't need to be on it. And she was like, well, Tory, if this was your patient, your client, they were about to go through a huge life change and they had found a tool that was really helping them manage their circumstances and they wanted to get rid of that tool. What would you say to them? Leah Kern [00:40:11]: It's such a good move. Tory Stroker [00:40:13]: I mean, it was such a good move, especially given the work that I do. And I was like I think I started laughing. Leah Kern [00:40:20]: Mhmm. Tory Stroker [00:40:21]: I was like, absolutely not. Leah Kern [00:40:23]: Yes. Tory Stroker [00:40:24]: Like, it was so helpful to take it out of myself and to be like, it's okay. And I think I still need to remind myself, like, it's okay if you're on this medication and if you need to be for the rest of your life. Leah Kern [00:40:39]: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Because you were saying earlier, like, the content you were seeing, it was more so, like, people announcing getting off of it and how that was going. And that's fine if that I have a dear friend who feels like she was medicated heavily from a really young age and going off of it was really meaningful for her because she could actually, like, feel her emotions when she felt like she was numb from, like, puberty. But yeah. That normalizing. And I'm, like, thinking, like, if one day I choose to have a a kid, which I would like to, I'm, like, oh my god. Leah Kern [00:41:08]: If anything, I might need to go up. You know, I just got 2 cats and, like, I'm more anxious of, like, are they okay? And, like, Tory Stroker [00:41:14]: Yeah. Yeah. Like, that was such a great point out from her of, like, you're about to go through huge life change and some people with postpartum anxiety who have underlying anxiety and why you wanna get off of it or go down on it. Like, it was a really good reflection note for me. But, yeah, that weight gain was similar. Like, it was a real fear of mine. And just like you said, I feel like for me weighing I could continue to live like this in this prison in my head and my weight might not change or like, you know, in my idea in my mind, it didn't think it would change. Or I could take a chance and see if this tool could help me be me again. Tory Stroker [00:42:10]: Weight changes might come. And it was like and, like, I think that you and I probably both say this, but, like, there might be some sucky parts of both of those options, but you get to choose which suck you wanna go through. Leah Kern [00:42:23]: Yeah. And I'm just so aware of us talking about this and, like, still ultimately I mean, I can't speak for you, and I don't even know for myself if medication made me gain weight or not. But regardless, we still are on the other side in with a lot of privilege. So that feels important to say of, like, yes. It was like a thought experiment in a moment of being like, oh, I see some anti fat bias coming up right now and, like, Absolutely Tory Stroker [00:42:59]: Absolutely. And I'm so glad you pointed that out. I think that's such a an important nuance to the conversation that, like, we both live in privileged bodies still. That that was a consideration and a fear, but it wasn't, like it didn't shift things completely for us. And and also, like, how much privileges in the conversation of being able to, like, have access to a psychiatrist and a therapist and, like, to go to yoga and all these things. Like, there is so much privilege to the wellness piece of this as well that you and I both have had access to and not everyone has. Leah Kern [00:43:40]: Right. And I'm also thinking about the person who already exists in a larger body or a body that's marginalized in different ways, considering going on medication and losing even more privilege and, like, that situation complicating the decision. And if that's you, like, I can only imagine. Like, it's and also when you're already in that heightened state of anxiety, you'll, like, try to find any reason to, well, I don't you know, to kind of keep things status quo instead of because change is scary for for people and especially folks with anxiety. So, yeah, that just feels important to get out there. Tory Stroker [00:44:16]: Yeah. I think it's so important to hold space. And, hopefully, if you're listening and in that in those circumstances that you feel like you have people around you who can hold space for you being in that really challenging situation of, like, trying to figure out what do I wanna do and what what might I lose and how hard that would be. Leah Kern [00:44:38]: Yeah. And it sucks. And it's so unfair that the potential of gaining weight is even something that could keep people from an incredible life changing tool. And to me, that just speaks to how much of a hold diet culture and our, like, mainstream, like, beauty ideals have on us that it could actually prevent us from an evidence based treatment for mental health. Tory Stroker [00:45:04]: And also, Leah, like, you and I both know, this isn't just medication around mental health. Right? This is medication, potential side effects, like, side effects to so many different medications. Weight gain is a side effect. Right? And so, like, it's even a bigger conversation, but, again, same sort of theme of, like, the fact that weight gain is such a kind of like a pause or a fear point speaks to how intense diet culture still is for so many of us. Leah Kern [00:45:33]: That, like, even for a second, you'd rather be anxious or depressed and smaller versus in a bigger body or, like, potentially bigger body and experiencing inner peace. It speaks volumes. I know we have to wrap up, so I feel like we could have this conversation for, like, another hour. But is there anything else on your heart that you're feeling to kinda add to this conversation? Tory Stroker [00:46:00]: Yeah. I would love to ask you, what do you feel like you've gained from medication? Leah Kern [00:46:09]: More peace in the quieter still moments of just, like, putting the dishes away, folding the laundry, sitting on the couch in a night where I'm, like, alone and my partner's out doing something. Those were the moments that it used to be kind of, like, rear its head. When you were alone? When I was alone or, like, when I was doing sort of, like, a mundane quiet task. And that really upset me because it was like, okay. Well, like, most of life is mundane quiet task, and I didn't wanna feel this way for most of life. So I find so much joy now in, like, yeah, putting away the dishes, like, folding laundry, or just, like, being on the couch with my book and, like, having more quiet and stillness. And it's not perfect. It's not like anxious thoughts never creep in. Leah Kern [00:46:59]: But in general, baseline, I feel like I'm able to enjoy, especially this chapter of Al and I just moved into our own place two and a half months ago, probably 3 months at the time this comes out. And that's really nice to and be able to enjoy that and to not have part of that, like, beautiful kind of chapter robbed by anxiety. Tory Stroker [00:47:25]: I'm so happy for you and so proud of you. Leah Kern [00:47:28]: Thank you, Tory. You're like my dietitian friend and big sister. Tory Stroker [00:47:32]: Big sister. Biggest cheerleader too. What about you? Leah Kern [00:47:37]: What have you gained? Tory Stroker [00:47:38]: I feel like I gained my life back. I feel like I gained so much. Like, I became me again. I gained presence in such important life moments that I would have kicked myself if I missed, like, my wedding and my honeymoon and Leah Kern [00:47:58]: Your baby. Tory Stroker [00:47:59]: My baby and motherhood. Like, so many big changes have occurred for me since I started medication. And medication has allowed me to be, I think, the most present version of myself to really be in those moments. And the hard, the beautiful, the joyful, the frustrating, like all of that. And I feel like I can experience all of that. I feel like I wish I could tell myself my, like, you know, younger version of myself, like, this will give you your life back. It will give you so much more than you could ever imagine in this little white pill. Leah Kern [00:48:42]: So beautifully said. Yeah. And I just hear so many parallels of, like, again, if you're listening to this just because you listen to this podcast, but you don't struggle with anxiety or different mental health. So much of what Tory just said reminds me of people's experience healing their relationship with food and body of, like, it gives you your life back. And, like, who would have thought that it can really have such wide reaching rippling effects? And so I just kinda wanna bring it there too. Tory Stroker [00:49:07]: Yeah. I'm so grateful we had this conversation. I hope really hope that it resonates with people. And if it helps one person feel less alone in their anxiety journey and feel a little less scared to take the step towards medication, I feel like we did our job. Leah Kern [00:49:26]: Yeah. Yes. I couldn't agree more. So well said. Where can people find you, Tory, to learn more about your work and stay connected? Tory Stroker [00:49:33]: Well, you can follow me on Instagram at Tory Stroker Nutrition. I have a substack called the Hoka Mocha that is published weekly over on my website, Tory stroker nutrition.com. And I think that's about it. Leah Kern [00:49:47]: Awesome. All of those in the show notes. Thanks so much, Tory. Tory Stroker [00:49:50]: Thank you. Leah Kern [00:49:57]: Thanks so much for tuning in to this week's episode of Shoulders Down. If you enjoyed the episode, if it inspired you or if you learned something, consider sharing it with someone to help spread the anti diet message. A special thanks to Softer Sounds for producing the podcast and making these conversations sound as beautiful as they feel. For more into eating and body image support, visit leokernrd.com and check out the blog and our free resources. To stay in tune with me and what's happening in my business and personal life, subscribe to my newsletter at leokernrd.com/newsletter. Thanks for listening. Talk to you soon.