Hannah Husband: I think that at our cores we are all drawn to pleasure. And I truly believe that movement can be pleasurable for all beings, if we expand our definition of what it is. Leah Kern [00:00:08]: Welcome to shoulders down. A podcast for truth seekers who want to heal their relationships with food and body. I'm your host, Leah Kern, and I'm an anti diet dietitian, certified intuitive eating counselor, and fellow truth seeker with personal experience navigating disordered eating. In this podcast, you'll learn to harness your body's innate wisdom to govern not just how you eat, but also how you live. It's my mission to help you heal your with food and body, so you can live your most aligned and fulfilling life. Welcome, and I'm so glad that you're here. Welcome back to another episode of shoulders down. Today, we have an awesome guest for you who's gonna cover a niche within the anti diet world that I feel like is sort of a big gap that not enough people are talking about, which is movement and exercise through the lens of anti diet and healing our relationships with movement and exercise. Leah Kern [00:01:03]: So many folks who have been in the throes of diet culture end up in the position where it's like, I don't even wanna think about moving my body because I've been so burned by having a coercive or punishing relationship with movement, and I don't even wanna go there anymore. I certainly went through this in my own anti diet intuitive eating journey. I had a period where I was like, woah. I just, like, really wanna rest and disengage from movement because I needed space to heal from it. So today's guest, Hannah, dives so much more deeply into this topic. And something really exciting is that Hannah is gonna be one of our panelists on our upcoming anti diet summer support panel. So if you are new here or if this is the first you're hearing of this, the anti diet summer support panel is a free offering happening live on June 6th at 3:30 Pacific time or 6:30 Eastern. And it is a panel consisting of 4 anti diet professionals who all have different expertise within the anti diet world. Leah Kern [00:02:07]: And we're gonna be offering you support on some of the most common hurdles we see moving into the summer months. So Hannah is one of those panelists and they'll be talking about the hurdles that come with moving our bodies as we move into the summer months. And then the other 3 panelists are Dacey Gillespie, who was a guest on shoulders down that aired last week. And Daisy is a anti diet personal stylist. If you wanna learn more about Daisy's work, you can check out that episode from last week or 2 weeks ago. And then the other 2 panelists are Bree Campos, who was also on the podcast back in February. Bree is a body image expert, and so she'll be talking about navigating body image hurdles as we move into the summer months, which can become so distressful if you don't have tools for dealing with being in a bathing suit, being in more exposing clothing, and dealing with all of the stories and distress that can come with that. And then I will be the 4th panelist and I am sharing about the common struggles that come with feeding ourselves, our relationship with food and nutrition moving into the summer months. Leah Kern [00:03:19]: So this panel is gonna be so awesome and it's just for incredible humans. And I hope you'll join us. It's completely free and it's a great opportunity to get some support going into what is historically perspective on movement. And if you really enjoy hearing from Hannah today, I think you'll enjoy this panel even more because you'll get to interact with Hannah live and ask questions and hear more specific support as it relates to the upcoming summer months. So as a reminder, you can learn more about this free panel and register via the link in the show notes. Okay. So with that, I'm gonna share a little bit more about Hannah's background and then we are going to dive right into today's episode. Hannah is a body liberation coach committed to supporting folks who feel left out of or harmed by mainstream fitness offerings. Leah Kern [00:04:17]: Henna supports their clients to trust themselves and their bodies and discover a plethora of ways to move that feel holistically nourishing to their well-being. Reclaiming movement as a way to help us regulate our nervous system, put self love into practice, and cultivate an internal feeling of power and strength is Hannah's jam. Welcome to the podcast, Hannah. I'm so looking forward to diving in with you. Hannah Husband [00:04:42]: Yes. I'm so delighted to be here. Thanks for having me. Leah Kern [00:04:46]: Yeah. I love that. Just to give folks, like, context, we literally met for the first time for a little coffee date on Friday. Today is Monday. The speed of of our friendship, it has a lot of, like, velocity right now, and I really like that. Hannah Husband [00:05:00]: Me too. I love when things happen unexpectedly and wonderfully. Leah Kern [00:05:04]: Yeah. Me too. So we'll start by hearing from you on your relationship with food and body. What is your story with your relationship with food and body as much as you're comfortable getting into? Hannah Husband [00:05:20]: Man. So growing up so I was the only child of a single mom. So it's kind of a unique, like, family situation where there's just really just 2 people. I will say, like, my mom was not one of the, like, dieting mom. She was kind of ahead of her time in a lot of way. She was really into, like, whole foods. The sort of, like, unprocessed whole food, almost like the Michael Pollan vibes, but before I think that book even came out. I'm not Leah Kern [00:05:50]: quite sure how she got Hannah Husband [00:05:51]: on that train, but she did. But there were definitely things that were, like, off limits or labeled as bad. Like, I remember that sugar, junk food in quotes, which you can't see in the podcast, were very off limits. And so kind of the first thing that I noticed at some point was that, like, when I would go over to a friend's house where they had, like, all the fun Costco snacks, I look back now. I'm like, oh, I would binge. Like, that's where that started. Cool. But it was just like, I might never get to have this thing again, so I'm gonna, like, eat as much of it as I want. Hannah Husband [00:06:25]: I was actually like a fairly slender, like, thin kid most of my growing up. In middle school, I ended up shooting up to the height I am now, which is 58. So I perceived myself as, like, quote, unquote, bigger than my peers. And pretty quickly in middle school, like, learned that that was, like, not a good thing. And I think that the beginning of a lot of the, like, body dysmorphia that I experienced, it took me into my thirties. I finally had this moment where I was like, oh, I've been thinking of myself, my, like, high school self as, like, plus sized, At that point, I had always worn straight sizes. So there was like a real difference in the way that I perceived myself from how my body actually was. And also, like, just to always name, like, there's nothing wrong with being plus sized. Hannah Husband [00:07:17]: All sizes are amazing. But at the time, I was definitely, like, growing up nineties, early 2000 era of, like, tiny, tiny, tiny is the only thing that is acceptable and okay, especially for, you know, women. So I remember in high school, again, right, I was taller than most of my peers. So I was trying to be like, what's okay for me? Like, what's right? And I met a girl who was my height at a summer camp. And was like, okay. You're gonna include me in. And I remember her telling me, like, the weight that she tried to sort of keep herself around, like, in the vicinity of. And that was £20 less than I currently weighed. Hannah Husband [00:07:59]: You know, my high school brain was like, oh, shit. I've gotta lose £20, like, as fast as possible. And I had no idea how to do that. Like, I didn't again, not having grown up in a dieting household, like, I didn't have a lot at the ready. And so I remember at one point being like, I'm just gonna eat 1 Luna bar a day until I, like, reach my goal weight, which lasted like 3 days. Because when you're starving, you can't function. At some point, I decided that I was, like, bad at dieting. And so I started tiptoeing more into exercise, and I really enjoyed movement. Hannah Husband [00:08:34]: I remember noticing how, like, clear my brain felt after going to an exercise class and how, like, present and embodied I felt. How much of the kind of intrusive thought monologue that was generally running for me about my body quieted in that moment of, like, presence and embodiment post exercise. And so I was like, okay. Cool. Like, maybe this will be my thing. For context also, I got into theater when I was, like, 12. And by the time I was in college, was pursuing a BFA in acting. That world was very I remember I went to visit the campus before I even decided to go to the school that I went to, and I met some sophomores who were, like, touring me around. Hannah Husband [00:09:20]: They were like, yeah. Only skinny girls get leads. So we're doing weight watchers to just, like, get ahead of it. Because all the senior girls either have, like, coke problems or full blown eating disorders, and we don't wanna go down that road. So we're doing weight watchers. And they were, like, talking about points over lunch. And I was like, what is this mystical thing that's happening? So, yeah, I would say in college, as I really was feeling this pressure to be thin professionally, oh, I won't be cast. I won't be taken seriously as an actress unless my body is acceptable. Hannah Husband [00:09:54]: Okay. I guess regardless of what I believe, I'm gonna have to, like, conform to the standards that I can be taken seriously in a professional context and, like, get roles and get auditions. That's when I really started to, like, lean into exercise as my way of changing my body because I'd already, like, pretty much decided that I sucked at dieting. Where do we go from there? Leah Kern [00:10:19]: What brings you to the work that you're doing now as a anti diet trainer and someone who does body image work and movement work? Hannah Husband [00:10:28]: I never felt like I achieved the body I was supposed to have. There would be times where I would make a difference, but I never felt like I was, like, fully getting it. So there was a part of me that started to rebel and be like, this standard seems unfair and, like, unrealistic. And just after I graduated college, I was doing theater professionally in Boston and trying to figure out a day job. And I, again, like, still really felt this strong positive influence of exercise in my being. So I was working at the front desk of the gym that I had gone to in college, which was like for its time, this, like, pretty cool, fairly inclusive, but all women's gym. So, like, on the nice side, it was an environment that was a little less image conscious. People could kind of like walk in and show up, and there was a sort of permission to be as you are, because you're not gonna be like hit on on the treadmill. Hannah Husband [00:11:27]: I know. Absurdity. But there was no one really in that space, like, questioning whether or not losing weight should be a goal. It was more the conversation of like, sure. But, like, let's do it in a quote, healthy way. And there was a lot of like, these diets are dumb, and this lifestyle choice is smart, that kind of vibe. But, anyway, I ended up getting certified as a personal trainer and working at that gym. And the more that I learned about exercise science, the more that I started to be like, oh, not all of us are meant to be skinny, like really thin. Hannah Husband [00:12:10]: And I started to perceive my own body, literally my skeletal structure. I was like, yeah, that's not I'm never gonna have a teeny tiny waist. My ribs are 2 inches away from my pelvis. Like, that is structurally but what it was helpful in that moment was that I realized it wasn't a personal failing, that I wasn't failing at being thin, which everyone should be able to do. And I started to, like, shift towards being like, oh, we are built differently, and that has to be okay. And so I would try in that era to, like, encourage my clients to stop making weight loss like the holy grail of their health and fitness and focus on, like, feeling better in your body, feeling strong. I was really into strength training personally. Like, Pilates and strength training were kind of the first things that really hooked me. Hannah Husband [00:13:00]: And so that was like the beginning of me, I think, sort of like being willing to go in a different direction than the mainstream. And then fast forward to probably, like, 2017, I moved to California. I was running my own small group strength training business. And I got a client referral from a friend of mine who was a massage therapist, who was like, hey. This person hasn't had good experiences with personal trainers before, but I think she really wants to feel strong, and I think you could be a Leah Kern [00:13:32]: good fit for her. Hannah Husband [00:13:34]: And so I met with this client, and she actually, she sent me a really long email before we even met. Being like, here's the deal. I exist in a larger body. I have PCOS. I don't wanna focus on weight loss. I really wanna feel strong so that I can go hiking, not have back pain, and support this knee that gets boobity sometimes. Like, can you do that? And I was like, of course. Absolutely. Hannah Husband [00:13:57]: I would love to support you with those things. And we ended up having a wonderful training relationship. She's still one of my favorite clients of all time. But in that process of supporting her with her strength, she shared a lot about the horrible way that she'd been treated in medical spaces. And I think while we were working together, she had a knee injury that required surgery and was, like, relaying to me the weight loss advice that she was being given by the doctors and the way they were, like, gatekeeping the surgery from her. And my brain just broke. Like, I just felt this like rage in me of like first of all, they weren't recommending how she should lose weight. 2nd of all, from my trainer brain, I was like, no. Hannah Husband [00:14:44]: You don't need to lose any muscle mass heading into a surgery. We actually need to try to get you as much muscle mass in and around the surgery site as we can and preserve it. So anything you do to restrict is gonna potentially impede that. What are doctors thinking? Leah Kern [00:15:01]: Yeah. This enrages me so much when I had a client who was trying to get pregnant from IVF and was told that she needed to lose weight to be able to undergo IVF. And it's like, that's the fastest way to hurt your fertility because your body's in a stressed out state and it's catabolizing. And so it's just so infuriating. Like you said, the word gatekeeping is so appropriate here of, like, the way that people aren't getting access to the same care options because of BMI and body size. Hannah Husband [00:15:31]: Yeah. So that that experience started to tip the scales for me. I would say prior to that in my practice, I was trying to like walk this line of I'm not saying anyone needs to lose weight. But I'm not gonna tell my clients that can't be their goal. And then after that point, I started to open my eyes more to the need for there to be spaces where we're explicitly saying like, hey, Weight loss is not the goal here. And I realized that I was gonna have a lot to overcome as a straight sized fitness professional to, like, make it clear that that I am that safe person, that I, like, hold those values explicitly. And so yeah. Now I call myself a body liberation coach instead of a personal trainer. Hannah Husband [00:16:17]: And that's like 2 part. 1, it just felt like a different name could be more welcoming because there's so much trauma for folks around fitness and past experiences. So I think inviting a new language can be really freeing. And then also, I realized that while I have all of this fitness and strength training expertise, And, like, now I've added active mobility and various other modalities to that. The other piece that I've always been helping my clients with, but that was sort of like flying under the radar is coaching around how do you relate to your body. What is the relationship there? Are you even thinking of it as a relationship? Okay. Cool. Let's start. Hannah Husband [00:17:00]: How do we befriend our bodies and how do we shift our relationship to movement? Especially, if folks are coming from having a really, like, coercive or obsessive or essentially, like, any form of power over relationship with exercise, where exercise or the trainer or the class is the thing, and you just have to be, like, a good little student to it. That sort of coaching side, I wanted to be an explicit part of my practice and let people know like, hey. We're gonna work on both. We're gonna work on this relationship with your body and with movement, and we're gonna actually work on movement itself. But I'm not willing to just, like, be the person who bosses you through a movement session anymore. Leah Kern [00:17:42]: Yeah. The parallel as a dietitian listening to this, it makes me think about if a dietitian were to just give someone a meal plan, when they walk away from that, it's not like they've learned to fish. It's like, give a man a fish versus teaching a man to fish, so it's not sustainable. Whereas, like, if we do deep work on understanding your relationship with food and, you know, unlocking your intuition, getting access to all that, like, inner body wisdom, then you're set for life. And and same thing with, like, most people could follow what a trainer says and, like, do that for some amount of time, but learning about themselves and exploring what movements feel exciting and feel aligned and exploring that relationship is that sustainable teaching a man to fish. Hannah Husband [00:18:25]: Yeah. Also, it's just more accurate. As good of a trainer as I am and I do believe that I'm very skilled at this point, I don't know what is going on inside your body. I can't feel the physical sensations that you're feeling. And so you as my client or my student have a wealth of information that I don't have. And so often, like, trainers that I otherwise respect fall into this trap. The marketing around fitness is like, you need an outside expert to teach you how to do the movement safely. Otherwise, you might hurt yourself. Hannah Husband [00:19:02]: I just like bristle at that type of marketing because it perpetuates this narrative that we can't trust ourselves. And that that's just incorrect, like, scientifically incorrect. The body is an incredible incredibly, like, alive and attuned ecosystem that will respond to inputs. And so you can absolutely try things, see how they feel, decide what to do next. Right? Leah Kern [00:19:30]: I definitely thought that if like, oh, I would be interesting to get more into lifting weights, but I don't trust myself. Like, everyone's told that, like, you're gonna, like, really fuck yourself up if you don't have someone watching you do it. And And from what I'm hearing you say, it sounds like maybe, but you also can pull back and say, oh, way I just did that didn't feel right. Hannah Husband [00:19:48]: Yeah. So I mean, guidance and coaching and education, I think, does have a lot of value, especially if you're starting from no experience or no knowledge. But this idea that there's good form and bad form, I was thinking about this before this call actually. So, like, weightlifting is a great example. Most of the way that we are, like, given education on the Internet, which remember, any free education you're you're getting on the Internet is actually marketing. That is someone trying to get you to buy their stuff. It is not unbiased. A lot of the way that I was initially taught movements, It was visually demonstrated. Hannah Husband [00:20:23]: So the instructor would, like, perform a proper squat, let's say. I would watch them, and then I would try to, like, imitate the shapes that they made with their body. And, you know, you'll get cues like, oh, don't let your knees go over your toes in a squat. Right? That's gonna keep you safe. There's so many problems with that. Like, 1, do you have a sense of where your knees are? Period. End of story. Yes. Hannah Husband [00:20:49]: No. Some people do. Some people don't. Right? That proprioception, that ability to, like, feel where any part of our body is in space is a skill in and of itself. So, like, when I start with folks, that's one of the first skills we work on. It's just like sensing your body in space. And then the other thing is visually oriented movement lends itself to, like, oh, I need to be in front of a mirror. If someone else can't watch me, I should be watching myself. Hannah Husband [00:21:14]: And then we're just getting like layers of barrier. Right? Anyone who has any, like, body image issues or like history with body dysmorphia, gender dysphoria. You don't necessarily wanna stare at yourself in the mirror while you're doing weird movements and your body is making weird shapes. And so then that like pushes this like potentially really nourishing and empowering experience of strength training even further away. The way that I teach now, and I like learned this over time and through trial and error. The way that I teach now is I coach people what sensations to feel for. So I will give a visual example because that's often helpful. Right? I'll like do a squat, but then I'll talk about some of the variations like, hey, it might feel good for your knees to go over your toes, it might not. Hannah Husband [00:21:57]: See what you notice as you descend into the movement. See if you can sit back into your butt and feel the underside of your legs, your hamstrings, and your butt muscles kind of catching you as you sink down into the motion. And then press into the floor with your feet to feel those muscles really engage and use that to help yourself stand back I'm not just showing a thing and then asking you to do an impression of that visual thing. We're actually talking through things to internally feel for as you're doing it that will help you know if you're actually training the muscle tissues that you want to strengthen. Leah Kern [00:22:38]: And even just the act of when you're trying to digest. Okay. I'm hearing activate the my hamstrings and then push up through my feet to come up. I feel like that in and of itself flexes the muscle of proprioception and interoception, like, dropping in and just even having to think in that way. Hannah Husband [00:22:57]: Yeah. Well and, like, that's the other thing. Like, I often won't say find your hamstrings because, like, that's an abstract concept for most people. Right? I'll try to locate it on the body. Like, the backs of your thighs or the underside of your thighs, AKA hamstrings. Like I throw it in. Right? Because it's fun, but I don't ever want my clients to feel like they need to become anatomy experts in order to train their own bodies. Yeah. Leah Kern [00:23:21]: And I love the idea of of pretend like you're sitting into a chair and and your bottom half is catching you. That's like a relatable thing that, yeah, most people have the experience sitting into a chair versus being like, oh, shit. I don't know where my hamstrings are. Like, what's wrong with you? Like, that, like, shame spiral that you can, like, kind of descend into just from someone using a body parts name. Hannah Husband [00:23:41]: Totally. Totally. Leah Kern [00:23:43]: So I'd love to dive into some questions. I actually have had clients and just community members from this space asking for more episodes geared towards movement. So it is cool. And then you and I had our synchronous meeting. So here we are. So I have a lot of questions for you. The first one I I wanna dive into here is when we talk about intuitive eating, which is the work I do, it often kind of overflows into intuitive living, intuitive movement. And a question that clients stumble into often is like, how do I balance not actively craving exercise, but then also knowing, oh, this thing makes me feel good after the fact. Leah Kern [00:24:29]: I think some of my clients get really stuck on like, oh, no. Am I forcing myself? Is it becoming diet cultury, or is it okay to not, like, fully have an intuitive craving for it and sort of push yourself to do it anyway? How do we make sense of this? Hannah Husband [00:24:43]: Yeah. Oh, man. Such a great question. There are so many layers of nuance here. So one, this is probably something you coach folks on with the food stuff. Right? What if I don't intuitively crave a vegetable ever? Like but I know they're theoretically good for my health. So I would say, like, for folks who've done an intuitive eating journey, you can pull from that same scaffolding. Because at the end of the day, the thing that helps you filter, am I slipping back into course of patterns, or am I actually advocating for myself and what I need? Whatever helps you filter that thing is gonna be the most effective. Hannah Husband [00:25:24]: There's many different, like, ways to kind of think about it. But leaning into things that you know have worked for you is super effective. I think the other thing that's helpful to differentiate here is it can be difficult to get started with something. Transitions can be hard. Creating momentum when we're kind of stagnant does feel like a big lift. So sometimes what I will suggest is, like, if you need to trick yourself into doing a little bit of movement to get started, to get over that hump. If that's the thing that's in your way, try a short amount. Dance to one song. Hannah Husband [00:26:06]: Just tell yourself you're gonna go for a 5 minute walk. And after 5 minutes, you can turn around and come home. But build in a short amount of starting something and then a touch point where you check-in with yourself and go, okay. Does this feel actually good now that I'm doing it? Like, am I glad that I'm doing it? Or do I feel have I left my body? Am I, like, dissociated and checked out and just going through the motions? Because that might be an indication that you've, like, genuinely overwritten and forced yourself into something. This is actually what me and my friend called the saltine method, which is like, if you're feeling nauseous and you can't tell if you're actually hungry and eating would help, or if you need to, like, not have any food, taking the tiniest nibble of a saltine and then seeing how your body reacts can be a really helpful barometer. So you can kind of apply that with movement as well. Like take a little nibble. What's the tiniest sip that you could imagine doing? And then check-in with yourself and be like, oh, no. Hannah Husband [00:27:05]: Actually, I have more willingness to keep going. I'm gonna do that. Or, oh, no. I'm really getting a hard no here. It's not time yet. Leah Kern [00:27:15]: I love that answer so much, and I love the comparison to the saltine test. And it goes even further when you have a bite of food like that. You start secreting digestive enzymes so your body is and that can help give you more information about, are we gonna do this? Are we gonna eat right now? Or, like, nah. And kinda just gets the juices flowing so you can get a little bit more connection with the cues and information. And I think about with movement of, like, okay. Once the blood's flowing, maybe you're getting a little bit of endorphins. How are you feeling then? There's actually some, like, physiological shifts happening. So I wanna talk about the case where someone's like, I wanna go home. Leah Kern [00:27:53]: I did my 5 minutes. I wanna go home. The message I'm getting is no. How can that person support themselves through being in this season of this work that is like, I have been so burned by a course of relationship with movement. I don't wanna do it. I don't wanna do anything that resembles it. How can we support someone or someone support themselves through that season? Hannah Husband [00:28:20]: Yeah. So I think one thing is really giving yourself permission to not. I certainly had my own period of time where I had to, like, fully set down movement, And that was deeply confronting for me as a movement professional. But the reality is, like, there's so much healing and freedom and, like, reorientation towards a genuine why that comes from your values when you give yourself full permission to not move. I think it's a parallel to like in the intuitive eating process where you give yourself permission to eat whatever you want. Right? Full freedom. Anything you want. No foods are good. Hannah Husband [00:29:02]: No foods are bad. I think there's a similar phase with movement that's needed where we go, there's nothing moral or amoral about moving or not moving. It's a 100% a choice. Leah Kern [00:29:15]: And only when you have that unconditional permission, can you make a choice from Hannah Husband [00:29:20]: a true Leah Kern [00:29:21]: sense of autonomy versus feeling like, well, I have to do this to be good or valid? Hannah Husband [00:29:26]: It's tricky because I think with movement, there's so much health morality kind of foisted upon us. Right? Even if we manage to shuffle off the, like, I have to move in order to lose weight narratives, there's still the, like, sitting is the new smoking, being sedentary is so bad for your health, and all the, like, kind of pop psychology around how movement can be really supportive to our mental health, which is true. And, also, anytime we're, like, browbeating ourselves or shaming ourselves into doing something that we feel like we should do. I think personally that whatever benefits that you get from it are less. I don't know if that's scientifically true, but, like, Leah Kern [00:30:12]: I absolutely agree. And I think slugging down a salad that you hate and you feel like you're supposed to do is different than eating something that you're, like, really loving, and the body physiologically responds, and that impacts metabolism digestion. So I absolutely think the benefits are less Hannah Husband [00:30:29]: if you hate it. Leah Kern [00:30:30]: And I also just think about shame isn't good for us being like, you gotta do this. Like Hannah Husband [00:30:34]: Well, and, like, the path to freedom, and I think you and I are really aligned in this. The path to freedom is rebuilding a trusting relationship with your body. I experience my intuition, my intuitive nudges as a real felt sense. Like it's a physical sensation in my body when I know something is right for me or when I'm being pulled towards something truly intuitively. And when I realized that, I was like, oh, we need to be able to be present in our bodies and present to our physical sensations if we as a society are gonna start being more intuitively led, which for me, I feel like is essential. It's like so important. That's the revolution I'm here to support. And so with movement, it can be so easy to trick ourselves into thinking that And this is a myth that's pervasively promoted. Hannah Husband [00:31:27]: Humans are inherently lazy and you will always need something to, like, get you going, to get you moving. I wholeheartedly disagree. Our bodies evolved to maintain their physical health through regular and variable movement. So there's a really symbiotic relationship between movement and physical health on a, like, cellular tissue level. Generally, we know that humans are more motivated or drawn towards pleasure than they are going to, like, do the right thing in reaction to pain or a stick. Which means that movement can be pleasurable, can be something that we, like, inherently crave and want. And sometimes we have to, like, allow ourselves to not move and really make invest in making that okay so that we can restore that intrinsic desire. And it takes longer than we think it should or like want it to a lot of the times. Leah Kern [00:32:35]: What about this idea that as humans, like, we're evolutionarily wired to conserve energy in case there's, like, the threat of a predator or we need to go, like, use that energy to gather food or whatever. Somewhere along the line, I heard this, and it was pretty validating for me because I was like, people who are like, I just love getting up at 6 AM and running and lifting weights and all that. I was like, just really? Can someone really feel that way? Because I do crave movement, but it didn't feel like that. I don't know. It still felt like it's not like, oh my god. I'm, like, dying to go to this right now. And somewhere along the way, I heard from someone that some amount of resistance is normal from an from evolutionary wiring of, like, we're wired to conserve energy and the idea of, like, let's go, like, lift weights or run-in place, but that's not actually gonna get us food, water, shelter, or protection can still be, like, sort of new on the timeline of our evolution. Does this make any sense? What do you think about this? Hannah Husband [00:33:37]: Yeah. I'm so glad you brought that up. So this brings up a couple things for me. Like, 1, diet culture has convinced us that the primary purpose of exercise is to expend energy. And then we're back in that calories in calories out paradigm. So that's bullshit and we know this. Right? So we put that aside. This we're wired to conserve energy. Hannah Husband [00:34:03]: Feels a little bit in that vibe of like, yeah, you're gonna have to trick yourself into burning calories. Fuck off. One of the key switches that helped me is realizing that movement can actually function to nourish your body. Like when I talk about maintaining our physical health. So for example, the connective tissues of our body, ligaments, tendons, the discs between your spine, the lining of your hip capsule. Right? These places that often are the site of injury. Those types of tissues don't have like veins and capillaries connected to them. So unless you move your wrist or your hip or the individual vertebra of your spine, nutrition isn't getting pumped into those cells. Hannah Husband [00:34:54]: They don't have their own like circulatory hookup basically. Your muscles on the other hand, veins and capillaries running through, as long as your heart is pumping, your muscle cells will get fed. But your connective tissues, those ligaments, those tendons, the meniscus in the knee, they need movement in order to essentially create a pump action to, like, get new blood and nutrition into those cells so that they can renew themselves and maintain the, like, sponginess and health of that tissue. But that can be as gentle as making a little circle with your wrist, or bending and extending your knee under your desk, or, you know, making a little circle with your arm. Doing a little cow stretch, but trying to kind of move segmentally 1 vertebra at a time. It doesn't have to be movement that costs a lot of energy in that moment in order to deliver that incredible nutritive effect to your soft tissue. So I think the other piece that is helpful when we're, like, grappling with this question is, oh, is your concept of movement that is energy expensive? We need to fill in that spectrum. Because, yeah, that's one end of the spectrum, but there's a whole bunch in between doing no movement and doing, like, movement that feels energetically expensive to be filled in. Hannah Husband [00:36:17]: And I guarantee you there's a lot of, like, pleasurable options in that missing part of the spectrum. Leah Kern [00:36:23]: How do you define movement? And this is such a good question of we're just talking about throwing this word around and and we're kind of coming to realize, certainly, there's folks listening who were not all on the same page about this. Hannah Husband [00:36:35]: Yeah. That's one of the reasons I shy away from using the word exercise and move towards using the word movement because it frees up some brain association. So how do I define movement? Leah Kern [00:36:47]: I heard you just say that it's a spectrum. Hannah Husband [00:36:50]: Yes. So movement is a spectrum. I think, also, maybe we wanna say, like, intentional movement versus you are moving while you're sitting still. You are breathing, which is moving your rib cage and your diaphragm. Your heart is pumping, which is moving blood through your veins. There is movement even in stillness. Right? And a lot of us, when we're sitting still, we aren't sitting still. We're fidgeting. Hannah Husband [00:37:13]: We're nodding. We're playing with the thing under the desk. We're bouncing our knee. Right? So all of that counts as movement. I think that's the other thing that can be really freeing is if you're trying to get a little bit more movement into your life, anything counts. There is no minimum. Anything is plenty. If you stand up and stretch, not even an official stretch, you don't have to do a stretch that like you learned in yoga class. Hannah Husband [00:37:37]: Expand your arms or your legs in a way that feels good to you. That's a movement. Leah Kern [00:37:44]: And this is so different than the all or nothing diet culture definition of what has to be for x amount of time, and your heart rate has to get to x range, and you have to break a sweat, and you have to be in workout clothes. And that all or nothing can be so intimidating and often lead to nothing. Because you're like, well, that's terrifying. I'm not gonna do all that. But, oh, I definitely could roll my neck while I'm sitting at my desk or, like you said, just, like, stretch Hannah Husband [00:38:08]: in a Leah Kern [00:38:08]: way that feels good. It's so inviting. And I feel like with the right support and mindset, this can lead to, like, a sort of beautiful domino of like, oh, that felt good. And like, oh, what if I shake around a little while I'm cooking? And like, Hannah Husband [00:38:22]: oh, that felt good too. Leah Kern [00:38:23]: And like, suddenly, you're moving more, but not because you should, but because you experimented with it. It felt good, and you innately wanted more. Hannah Husband [00:38:31]: Yes. Exactly. And we're back to kind of the saltine thing. Right? If you do a few neck circles and your body goes, thank you. You're like, oh, what else can I circle and make feel good? Right? It has this easy domino effect where we don't have to use motivation or harness willpower. We just have to, like, give our body an opportunity to experience pleasurable, nourishing movement, and then listen and be like, who else wants some attention? Leah Kern [00:39:03]: So back to your definition of movement. You started to say, like, differentiate between intentional movement and non intentional. Hannah Husband [00:39:10]: Yeah. I would say, like, movement wise, anything counts. If you make circles with your wrists or circles with your ankles, if you stretch a little bit side to side, if you stand up and sit down a few times, if you put on a song and dance, whatever dancing means to you, If you balance on one foot for a few seconds while you're brushing your teeth and then balance on the other foot. Anything from like these little kind of jogging, if you'd like to. Going for hikes. I use hikes in quotes because to me, I define hiking as walking in nature. And I know for a lot of people, hiking has the connotation of uphill, sweating, breathing hard both ways. That's not how I define a hike. Hannah Husband [00:40:01]: A hike to me is, oh, no. I have gone to a trail, and I am amongst the trees, and hopefully walking on dirt, which just feels really good to me. I think also movement has been I like to think of it as a spectrum, but I think we've really been taught that it's a hierarchy. And that certain forms of movement are more valuable, more valid, and that's where we get into those rules, like, you were talking about it, like, it only counts if. Leah Kern [00:40:27]: Yeah. This is something I wanted to talk to you about. So what if someone is like, oh, no. The kinds of movement I like are like gardening and dancing to a song in my house, and it does not look like a group fitness class or weightlifting or jogging or hiking or anything more, like, traditional. Oh, no. Does this mean that I'm not getting optimal exercise? How do we address that? Hannah Husband [00:40:54]: For me, I would say you get to hire movement, whatever kind, to enrich your life. And so if the movement that you're doing, like gardening and dancing, having kitchen dance parties while you make dinner, If that feels like enough for you, if your body's feeling good and you are enjoying what you're doing, that can be enough. Again, there's no moral obligation to do more. There's no objective. I was just arguing about this with my partner the other day. He was like, isn't there like an objective amount of movement that everyone should get every day? And I was like, Leah Kern [00:41:31]: They're like, is, but like, is it legit? Hannah Husband [00:41:34]: There are things that are recommended by the government and stuff. Leah Kern [00:41:38]: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Hannah Husband [00:41:39]: Bodies are so different and unique. What feels like enough movement to me is gonna be different than what feels like enough movement for someone else. It's also gonna change depending on what season of your life you're in, what your priorities are. But in general, let's go back to our like gardener kitchen dance person. If at some point, you're in your garden and you're like, oh, man, like every time I weed for more than like an hour, my low back really hurts. I would say, okay, cool. That's a sign, maybe an indication. Your body doesn't quite have enough capacity to handle the physical demands that you're putting on it. Hannah Husband [00:42:20]: And this is really where I think of strength training and mobility from. It's like, what do you wanna do with your body? What's important to you? Oh, gardening for more than an hour without pain? Great. What are the current physical capacities that you have? Do you have enough flexibility to be in that position? Do you have enough strength to support yourself in that position? If we're coming up with pain after an hour, then it's like, no. We need to expand your capacities that you have enough strength, enough endurance, and enough flexibility to do what you wanna do. Right? So I sort of think of, like, the circle that you wanna do is a small circle. I wanna give you enough physical capacity that's just slightly outside of that circle. Such that, if you overshoot or you get a little hyper fixated on one particular weed, you're still gonna be okay. Because there's some splash. Hannah Husband [00:43:05]: There's some wiggle room in terms of what your body can handle. Leah Kern [00:43:09]: Yeah. I love that. It's really centering the person's values and what's important to them instead of just like blindly being like, well, you need to do xyz for no reason. And it makes me think of a dear friend on her own movement journey. Her goals really looked like, I wanna be able to, like, ride bikes and go on long walks and that to feel okay. And it was more, like, based on what she wanted to do versus lift x amount of pounds in the gym or whatever. And I think that really worked for her in deriving a sense of really personal motivation. Hannah Husband [00:43:40]: Yeah. And I think that can be another piece going back to your first question. How do I get myself in motion when I don't necessarily have the desire in that moment to start exercising or doing my training? Once you've identified what's important to you, Oh, I really want to be able to ride my bike for 2 hours so that I can, like, bike to my mom's house and back Because that's a nice way to visit her, and it gives me great brain drugs. That's how I describe the endorphin thing. Brain drugs. Okay. Cool. I don't feel like biking right now, but I know that if I don't practice a certain amount, I end up losing that capacity, and then I can't do the activity that I like. Hannah Husband [00:44:24]: So let me try. Let me see if I can engage in this thing. But you're linking it back to like a clear why that's related to something that enriches your life versus anytime you go, why do I think I should walk for at least 20 minutes? Where is that coming from? If you can't find a reason that's related to you specifically, odds are, it's some arbitrary shit that you heard somewhere that's probably linked all the way back to diet culture in some way. Leah Kern [00:44:55]: Yeah. It makes me think of the whole 10,000 steps thing, which I'm sure you hear all the time. Yeah. What are your thoughts on this? Hannah Husband [00:45:01]: So I forget whose podcast I heard this on, but that was actually a marketing campaign from a pedometer company that created that 10,000 step thing. It just, like, went viral, basically. And now we think of it as a medical recommendation, but it was created as a marketing strategy for pedometer, not through rigorous medical research. Leah Kern [00:45:26]: Right. So all of the kind of noise out there that it sounds like maybe your partner was referencing of you need x amount of vigorous movement that, you know, really getting your heart rate and producing a sweat. I was just talking to a former client the other day, and she was like, I feel bad that that's not what I like. That's not the kind of movement I like. I like gentle movement and more, like, in the realm of what we were talking about, you know, gardening, dancing, stretching, walking, gentle movement. And she was like, I worry, more like her partner was saying, like, I worry that that's not enough to support you, to support your health, that that's not okay. Is this true? Is this a myth about vigorous versus gentle? Hannah Husband [00:46:10]: I would wanna answer that partner's question with a question. Not enough for heart health. Right? Like, we need to probe deeper with these, like, standards that we think we have. But in general, the healthiest thing we can do for our hearts is pretty gentle what's called type 2 cardio, which is essentially where you are, like, continuing activity, but able to have a conversation while you're moving. So it feels boring for most people. It doesn't feel very, like, energy expensive, but that is actually the thing that builds the capacity of the heart most efficiently. It's becoming more popular suddenly. When I was in the my fitness payday, it was very unpopular. Hannah Husband [00:46:55]: And people were like, you don't need to do steady state cardio. You need to do high intensity interval training. But again, that was all them talking about fat loss, quote unquote, theoretical. For actually talking about heart health and heart functionality, and increasing the resilience of the heart, which is a muscle, that type 2 is the most valuable thing that you can do. And that could be like taking a walk in your neighborhood with a friend and having a chat or getting on a phone call with a friend and taking a walk in your neighborhood. The high intensity stuff, there are some health benefits for sure. Specifically, more intense exercise can help us complete the stress cycle. So if you're there's a really great book on this called burnout. Hannah Husband [00:47:41]: Emily Nagoski, the same person who wrote come as you are, she and her sister wrote this book called burnout that really, like, walks you through the sort of scientific thought behind it. But even that, it's like, great. But it's optional. Like, if you aren't in a place to do that or if you feel like you have to force yourself to do it, is that causing more stress than it's relieving? Leah Kern [00:48:03]: Right. And is it gonna lead to an unsustainable relationship with movement where you never wanna do that thing because it's forceful? What is the stress cycle of Hannah Husband [00:48:12]: The stress cycle that they talk about in burnout, which they will explain much more eloquently than I will, but, basically, when we encounter a stressor, the way that our nervous system is designed to handle it is that we have a spike in cortisol and, like, potentially adrenaline. So that we become, like, alert and aware and ready to respond that kind of fight or flight response. And then, usually, we will do something physical to deal with that threat. Thinking back to, like, you know, humans 100 of 1000 of years ago. Right? You'll run away from the tiger or you'll climb a tree or you'll hoist the rock off of your friends that it fell on. Right? And you have this pretty intense physical expression. And then you come back to your village or your tribe or connection with someone, and you have a sense of safety. And that sort of spike of go get them hormones releases from your system. Hannah Husband [00:49:10]: And essentially, the argument is that in our modern day life, we have a lot of things that kind of low level ping that initial part of the stress response, but we aren't necessarily getting the opportunity physically to express it and complete the cycle. So we come back to rest and digest and more of that restorative nervous system state. Leah Kern [00:49:32]: I love that. That's so fascinating and just so affirming of, like, times I've been stressed, and I'm like, I just need to go on a walk or a jog, and it feels so much better after. Yeah. But the thing is, Hannah Husband [00:49:42]: it only has to be intense relative to your baseline. And even in the book, I'm just remembering as I was saying this, they give an example of, like, someone who hates exercise and, like, refuses to do it. And they coach that person to lay in the bed and just tense and then relax their muscles. Leah Kern [00:50:00]: Yeah. Like somatic work. Hannah Husband [00:50:02]: Yeah. We can really be creative with how we engage the body and what intensity looks like and feels like. And there's actually a lot of room to cater to the preferences and desires of the individual and find something that does the thing, like does what it says on the tin, but feels within their, like, desire wheelhouse. Leah Kern [00:50:26]: That is so fascinating and really speaks to how all of this there's so much nuance and it's so personal of, like, what is intense for someone might not be intense for someone else. And it's a whole spectrum. I love that. I wanna read that book. That sounds awesome. Okay. I know we're we're wrapping up here on time. I have one question that came to me earlier in our conversation. Leah Kern [00:50:49]: So do you think that deep down, everyone craves movement? And if you don't, it's because of conditioning in society or, like, a history of having a sort of like abusive relationship with movement. Do you think that at our core, we all crave movement? Hannah Husband [00:51:08]: I think that at our core is we are all drawn to pleasure. Physical sensations that are enjoyable. And I truly believe that movement can be pleasurable for all beings, if we expand our definition of what it is. And I think once we have that pleasure movement pathway connected in our lived experience, it will naturally be craved. Leah Kern [00:51:37]: Beautiful answer. I love how you just kind of gently reframe to we all crave pleasure. Hannah Husband [00:51:41]: Yeah. Because that's really the craving. The craving isn't necessarily movement. But movement can be a way to access many forms of enjoyable sensation. And the cool thing to me about that also oh, man. My brain just went 8 different directions. So one, it's subversive. Because in capitalist, white supremacist, patriarchal, blah blah blah society. Hannah Husband [00:52:06]: Pleasure has been made the enemy, and productivity has been made the, like, end goal of all things. And so reorienting towards pleasure, prioritizing our own pleasure, like, that's a whole transformative journey to go on. Leah Kern [00:52:20]: Yeah. That book have you read this book, Pleasure Activism? Hannah Husband [00:52:24]: Started it, got partway through it, and meaning to come back to it. Yes. But to me, that's a pathway that's really worth exploring and really rich to explore. Because if we're following what feels good as we seek and explore and play with movement coming back into our lives, that's a way to trust that we're not operating from shoulds or from conditioning. So if it genuinely feels good, we can't argue with that. Leah Kern [00:52:54]: And I think about too how if we're left in, like, a sort of numbed out state of not feeling good, then we are more susceptible to, like, being sold to do this plan or need this shirt on TikTok or whatever because we're just in this, like, low, like, sort of humdrum of disease. Hannah Husband [00:53:12]: Yeah. And it's easy to slip into, like, well, I don't know what's important. So let me see what someone else says is important. What are the guidelines? What are the rules? What should I be doing? Versus like, what do I like? What makes me feel like me? Leah Kern [00:53:28]: Yeah. I love the way that you view movement through the lens of pleasure. I've never talked to anyone with that viewpoint before. Hannah Husband [00:53:36]: It can be, like I said, a hard thing to embrace because just embracing prioritizing our own pleasure is its own revolutionary project. But letting pleasure be a valid guiding principle for your movement practice, whatever that movement practice might evolve to be, is a sure fire way to make sure that you're serving yourself and centering yourself. Leah Kern [00:54:01]: I love it. We might have to have a second episode because I didn't even get to some of these questions. So I have a few wrap up questions that I like to ask everyone who comes on the show. The first is, I usually ask what is your biggest diet culture pet peeve, but I wanna know from you what is your biggest fitness culture pet peeve? Hannah Husband [00:54:19]: There's so many. How do I pick 1? Leah Kern [00:54:22]: Or, like, one that's really present right now and, like, top of mind. Hannah Husband [00:54:26]: Yeah. So I think it's the the general narrative that it has to be movement has to be a certain duration in order to quote, unquote count. People are setting that duration at different places. Right? 20 minutes, at least 15 minutes. At least, it has to be an hour. But the reality is, again, if we're thinking about movement as like something that we're adding to our bodies and nourishing our bodies with. If you do like one shoulder shimmy, that's the equivalent of putting a dollar in your mobility movement savings account. If you do one squat, you're putting a dollar in your strength savings account. Hannah Husband [00:55:03]: If you do 5 squats here and 7 squats there and like one bicep curl, like all of those things are additive and you're putting a dollar every time in your strength savings account. And the cool thing is, like a savings account, you actually gain interest over time. The more you communicate to your body that strength is important to you, that a particular range of motion is important to you, the more your nervous system will then do the internal processes to support those movement pathways and keep them available for you. Leah Kern [00:55:33]: I love that. I love the idea of a piggy bank. It makes it like no thing is too small. Just rolling your wrist at your desk, great. Like, you're still getting that movement in the joints. And so the antithesis too, it has to be x amount of time to count. Yeah. The next question I'd like to ask everyone, which you are the first guest who ever started to answer this question before I asked it earlier in the episode, and that is, what does intuition mean to you and how do you experience it? Hannah Husband [00:56:01]: I love this question. So intuition to me is inner wisdom. It's completely trustworthy, though sometimes baffling. It doesn't always make sense, right, in the moment, but it is a 100% correct all of the time. For me, I experience it There's actually a couple of different ways, but I mostly experience it as a feeling in my body. When I have an intuitive nudge about something, I will sort of feel this I don't even know how to describe it exactly. Sort of presence in my lower abdomen. Like, where I'm like, oh, I'm like connected to my belly in a way that feels good versus many of the ways that I have felt about my belly throughout my life. Hannah Husband [00:56:47]: And then one of the other filters that I personally use is, like, if I find myself trying to talk myself into or out of something, that is not intuition. That is some other voices. Leah Kern [00:57:00]: It's such a good litmus test. Yeah. It's so interesting to hear the way people describe it. I've had tons of guests on this podcast, and there are some universal themes of, like, it's in my gut. It's somewhere deep viscerally, but I've been surprised to learn that people actually experience it very differently. Hannah Husband [00:57:17]: Yeah. Some people get my friend calls it brain movies. It's very image oriented for this person. Other folks will, like, hear words sometimes out of nowhere. Some people also, like, see words as like an image. So, yeah, I'm always curious to hear for folks who have a strong connection to their intuition, like, how does it arrive for you? Leah Kern [00:57:38]: Yeah. The guest that came on that it sort of most closely aligned with how I experience it, they described it as, like, an air drop where it just, like, boom. It just, like, pings into you, and you're like, I don't know where that came from, but, yes, that. Hannah Husband [00:57:52]: Yep. I relate to that too. That is often the way it is for me too, where you're like, woah. Oh, okay. Okay. It's a knowing that, like, arrives different than the way that thoughts move through, if that makes sense. Leah Kern [00:58:05]: Yeah. That distinction feels really accurate. Is there anything we missed or anything else in your heart you're feeling called to share? Hannah Husband [00:58:16]: I just wanna say that if you're listening to this and the idea of having a pleasurable movement experience feels totally out of reach and unreasonable and foreign to you, I see you. I remember feeling that way, and I just wanna invite some tenderness and some unshaming. Right? Sometimes we hear about a thing and then we're like, oh god. I can't do that. Be tender with yourself. Know that this is 100% something that was stolen from you by the way that this culture is. I really do believe that, like, intrinsically, we can move in pleasurable ways. That's something that belongs to all bodies innately. Hannah Husband [00:58:59]: And it's really just a matter of like finding your way home to that. It's not something that you would need to go out and buy or like, if it's not available to you right now, you're not broken. You've just gotten a little lost, which is totally understandable. Leah Kern [00:59:14]: Thank you for those beautiful words. I love this idea that it's not something you have to go out and find outside of yourself. It's already in there. It's just perhaps, buried or disconnected. Hannah Husband [00:59:25]: Yeah. Or blocked. Leah Kern [00:59:26]: Hannah, where can people find you to learn more about your work and get connected with you? Hannah Husband [00:59:31]: Yes. So you can find me on my website, which is just hannahhusband.com. Super creative. My last name is Husband. You can also find me on Instagram at Hannah Husband. And I have a weekly newsletter that I send out called body liberation love notes. So if you wanna be part of kind of an ongoing rambly conversation about how to reorient your relationship with movement and your body. Those are all great places to connect. Leah Kern [01:00:00]: Thank you so much, Hannah. I've loved this conversation. Hannah Husband [01:00:04]: Me too. Thank you for these juicy questions, and I'm definitely game to do a part 2. Leah Kern [01:00:09]: Yes. Yes. If you have other movement questions, definitely, to the listeners, send me an email, and we can grill Hannah with those extensions. Hannah Husband [01:00:20]: Yes, please. Bring it. I love myth busting. It's one of my faves. Leah Kern [01:00:24]: Okay. I'll we'll source some myths. Thank you, Hannah. Thanks so much for tuning in to this week's episode of Shoulders Down. If you enjoyed the episode, if it inspired you, or if you learned something, consider sharing it with someone to help spread the anti diet message. A special thanks to Softer Sounds for producing the podcast and making these conversations sound as beautiful as they feel. For more intuitive eating and body image support, visit leokernrd.com and check out the blog and our free resources. To stay in tune with me and what's happening in my business and personal life, subscribe to my newsletter at leokeurnrd.com/newsletter. Leah Kern [01:01:05]: Thanks for listening. Talk to you soon.